Loral's Evil Agenda - Las Vegas, Summer 2005
by Loral on June 01, 2005
Next week I travel west to the Las Vegas Fan Faire and to the second Everquest Summit. Once again I will bring my recommendations to help improve Everquest. Many of the items discussed in previous Evil Agendas have been addressed by SOE and it is my hope that these issues will be addressed as well.
Help Players Find Groups
This is by far the number one issue in Everquest today. SOE developers should do anything they can to help players find groups, build groups, and get groups off and hunting as fast as possible. Players below 60 have much greater trouble finding groups than those above 60. SOE should always look for ways to increase the pool of players looking for groups at all levels. Here are some specific suggestions to help improve grouping:
- Allow group invites across zones and from within the "Looking for Group" tool.
- Continue to focus on mission-based content. Missions are the best thing to happen to Everquest.
- Add missions for groups of three or four players instead of six.
- Add an in-game group scheduling tool to help players find groups during certain play times.
- Add better rewards to single-group encounters so raiders and non-raiders group together more often.
- Do not rely on soloing to solve the grouping problem.
SOE may also consider more radical approaches for players to group such as allowing searching for players in other zones, allowing players to automatically join a group, and allowing for cross-server groups for instanced zones.
Beyond any other issue, SOE should continue focus on helping players find groups, build groups, and have fun.
Add More Interesting Monsters
Dragons of Norrath gave us some of the best game mechanics in a massive online game but the beasts left much to be desired. In Dragons we met level 72 goblin kings unarmed and wearing loincloths, level 68 pumas that hit harder than Cazic Thule, and spiders - lots and lots of spiders.
I have watched gods die. I have killed vampire lords with my bare hands. I fought in the Ringwar of Thurgadin. I have traveled to outer worlds and to the deepest pits of hell. I shouldn't have to run from a puma. I am a level 70 high priest; make me feel like it. Add beasts worthy of my power and skill. Examples include cyclopses, death knights, demons, devils, dire beasts, ettercaps, ettins, greater elementals, giants, golems, gorgons, hell hounds, hydras, liches, lycanthropes, medusa, manticores, mephits, minotaurs, mummy lords, nagas, ogre mages, rocs, spectres, titans, vampire lords, wights, wraths, and wyverns.
No more rats, bats, spiders, pumas, or loincloth goblins for level 70s.
Fun monsters are only one part of this topic, however. The other part comes from varying the challenge of these encounters beyond hitpoints and melee damage output. Fighting a lich and fighting a giant shouldn't be similar encounters. Single-group monster challenges should have the same wide variety that raid encounters have.
Add a Mentor System
As Everquest gets older the average level of players gets higher. As this average level increases, including methods so higher level and lower level players can hunt together, meet challenges, and receive rewards, becomes more important. Add a method so lower level and higher level players can group together, face challenges, and receive rewards. This will lead to a much larger possible player-base at any given level and allow friends who have different amounts of play time to continue to hunt together. While level-based systems such as the Mentor system of Everquest 2 work well, it is not the only way to accomplish this.
Rebuild the Plane of Knowledge
More and more players, both old and new, use the Plane of Knowledge as their central gathering place. Rebuild the Plane of Knowledge with new graphics, a new layout, new quests, and a new storyline. Make the Plane of Knowledge the City of Adventure with a new government and new ties to existing content. Build the city to prevent the video lag we receive in the current city. While this is no doubt a monumental job, the heavy activity in Knowledge, now and in the future, warrants the update.
Massive online game competition is fierce this year. Games begin to demand more and more of our time. Everquest remains competitive with all of the newer games and expansions like Dragons of Norrath offer features unseen in existing MMOGs. If EQ developers continue to improve grouping options, add new useful features, improve monsters, and update the core city, Everquest can continue to thrive for years to come.
Loral Ciriclight
1 June 2005
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: Tuco on June 1, 2005 11:00 PM
WOW you are the Icon for every player I hate in EQ1 today. I'm shocked but not surprised your going to the summit [avoid personal attacks please - Loral] finding a group is the 1# problem faced ?you must be one of those people that cant use your LFG UI or puts LFG up then goes afk in the bazaar. [edited again by Loral, more attacks ] go to a couple zones and /ooc LFG, travel around and talk to a few partys there, works for me everytime. You already have: the power to port to just about anywhere,alt healers that can heal almost as well as clerics, instance zones, WTF. I could go on but I can just log in and send tells to people [more attacks...] in PoK waiting to be hand carried to where the xp is.ugh and the Pok remodel? what would be nice is to see PoK destroyed to just a hub like the new bazaar.
Pok is great for a hub,and MGBs; but the /shouts? /casinos? beggers? I miss my old city. The new models? well I dont have DoN yet, as I just got OoW (GoD kinda killed any chance I would buy a xpansion out the gate) and cant thnk of many old models I've seen in OoW. But I'm not surprised they went back to cut/paste, they had to really come thru with OoW. ANYWAY- look your point at the summit if you had any pulse of the player base is this::
More encounters,areas like WoS/DS(and most of OoW zones ). People might not say it but those areas are still the most traveled on my server (maelin) and the reasons are huge. (1)XP is great (even for my 20% xp penalty Troll SK), (2)gear that is a upgrade for the lvl needed to require (3- and my fav) maybe not so much DS but in WoS; it requires a full party,and not that PL'd player from BoT,if you want to have any success in the deeper parts of the zone,you better know your class and how to play it- people who dont quickly get weeded out. I love that zone, thats the first zone (PoV is close,but not to the extrem WoS is) were gimp players who have been riding the coat tails of their guild/group get their ass's handed to them.(pull agro from MT,over nuke, heal on fd pulls, you all know them) Thats what EQ needs. more places where you cant half'ass it and expect not to have your party think about boot'ing ya. SOE has done everthing they could to make almost every part (xp bonus's with vets awards), I mean every part of the game is easier -but if you had to name the best zones,parts of the game you love the most,it would be the most dif'cult zones- the ones you cant just zone in and start pulling while you wait to form a full group. If you want easy head on over to WoW ( a fantastic game but bye far easier).
Comment Posted by: Tuco on June 2, 2005 12:54 AM
If I seem angry, its just the "cant you make X easier for me so I have to do even less,but yet get more out of it" cry's I hear more and more of late in EQ. I'm out-
ps. and mentoring is a great idea.
Comment Posted by: Manshima on June 2, 2005 01:08 AM
Tuco, have you played any other MMOs lately? I played EQ for 6 years, but have started WoW for several of the reasons that Loral has pointed out. The main reason: I can log in and start PLAYING right away. No looking for a group, no waiting for help, I jump in and start killing things all by my self. heck, I can even QUEST ALL THE TIME AND GET GOOD XP WHILE DOING IT. There is a novel thought!
EQ could take the mission system and make storyline quests with it like they did in Dragons of Norath. Add a line each month and make most of it solo'able. Add searching quests, tradeskill quests, factioning quests, even killing quests! The key would be variety.
MMOs are about having fun, and unless you enjoy sitting around yelling LFG, logging in and having to wait to play is not fun.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 2, 2005 01:33 AM
"Examples include cyclopses, death knights, demons, devils, dire beasts, ettercaps, ettins, greater elementals, giants, golems, gorgons, hell hounds, hydras, liches, lycanthropes, medusa, manticores, mephits, minotaurs, mummy lords, nagas, ogre mages, rocs, spectres, titans, vampire lords, wights, wraths, and wyverns.
"
He even alphabetized it. Did you have a D&D Monster Manual open while you wrote this? Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. There are some neat critters in those books.
Anyway, off topic, but it kinda fits with the revamped newbie experience: Why not add "recruiter rewards"? They'd work kind of like veteran rewards. Every time someone starts up a new account, if they were referred by an existing player, they can enter that person's account number or something, and that person would get a "recruiter reward." Like vet rewards, you'd get one per person you recruit and could claim them on one character per recruit. That might encourage existing players to go out and get friends playing.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 2, 2005 01:40 AM
By account number I meant account name, of course.
And how would mentoring work in EQ? I've never played EQ2, so have no idea what it's like. Could someone please explain it for us non-EQ2 players?
Also, more missions would make me very happy. I want to participate in a battle between orcs and elves in an instanced Greater Faydark. I want to lead an army of Coldain into an instanced Kael Drakkel to end the Kromrif threat forever (and get my 11th ring). I want to defend an instanced Erudin from a Heretic invasion, then head to instanced Paineel to take part in the counter attack. I want to head to an instanced Qeynos Catacombs to battle the evil Bloodsaber Cult (and get my 6th badge).
That's all I got for now, I think.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on June 2, 2005 05:30 AM
I'll bite:
More Omens style content please.
More one group trial without failure lockout.
More indoor content that feels indoor.
More raid content than DoN. More like Omens.
More xp zones like RS, ascent without the ice side (xp mob mezzing: big nono) or dispells.
More mob variety and looks, Omens style.
More texture variety on mobs (dynamic textures on all DoN dragons isn't variety. it looks ugly at some point)
LESS quested spells.
LESS hybrid 2handers on raid mobs
LESS see invis, selo speed trash
LESS self healing caster trash
LESS mezzing trash
Comment Posted by: Pants on June 2, 2005 06:57 AM
Adding a better LFG tool is a good idea. Why would anyone complain about that? Go around to zones all over the place using OOC? Yeah that's a real efficient way to get groups going. It's crap like that, and for other reasons too, that I quit EQ. It should not ever take an hour or more to put together a group in any game ever. If it does it's the game's fault for either not encouraging grouping like in WoW or making it too hard to find who's looking and easily communicate with them. In this regard City of Heroes really has it right with their new LFG tool. Players can tag themselves as looking for any variety of group types (missions, task forces, trials, street patrol or any), add comments, and just simply right cliking on their name bring up a menu with choices to invite (no matter where in the game they are), send a tell and other options. Plus it can be filtered to show people in any specific zone in the game, level ranges, arch types (class), what type of group tag they have up, and has a name search field. It's very nice and works great when actually used.
The one thing you suggested Loral "Add an in-game group scheduling tool to help players find groups during certain play times" I don't quite get what you mean. Can you go into more detail on what it is you envision with this idea?
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 2, 2005 08:28 AM
Maitreya,
I actually used the D20 3.5 SRD for that list of monsters:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsters.htm
Most of those should be public domain as well so no licensing problems.
Pants,
For an in-game group schedule tool my idea was sort of a longer term LFG. I could go to my schedule and say that I group on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Fridays from 7pm to 11pm EST. Other people put in their schedules as well and through the in-game email system our group can pick a place to go hunt and meet. There are a few out-of-game versions of this but I think an in-game one would help.
Tuco,
I actually get groups every night I try. I either put them together myself or I get picked up pretty easily. This is for two reasons. 1. I'm a cleric and people still want clerics. 2. I'm level 70 and most players online at the time I play are also in this level range.
Many players are not so lucky, especially those who play during non-primetime hours and aren't yet level 60. When I talked to people about the top issues they had with the game, this one came up again and again.
Content should be challenging, finding a group should not.
Comment Posted by: Alley on June 2, 2005 08:43 AM
Tuco, what an abusive post. Loral has put forth more suggestions that make sense for the average (i.e. non-uber) player than I have ever seen in one place.
And "who the F" does he represent? Me, I hope, and many others like me.
Comment Posted by: Perc the Shadow Bard on June 2, 2005 10:09 AM
I'm with Alley on this one. That post wasn't helpful at all, Tuco. How about you head out of WoS and try someplace a little more challenging if all of your "alt healers" are up there near clerics. If you miss your city so much and don't like other people... i'm sure the Frog town would love to have you. Should be pretty empty. Now, Loral doesn't represent me per se, but a good majority of the non raiders I know all feel the same way. Good work, Loral. wtb more hybrid 2hdrs on raid mobs. :)
Comment Posted by: mac173 on June 2, 2005 11:15 AM
"Allow group invites across zones and from within the "Looking for Group" tool."
They do have this. Its called tells. Double click on the players name and it sets up a tell to send to them. There is no need to invite into group until they reach the zone you are gonna group in. For missions and LDoN style content, the travel time should be negligent with all the porting available. This will not hurt anything, I just do not think it will help. The LFG tool that is already in game is WAY underutilized, and many, many players do not know it exists, or how to use it. Groups can designate the class and level range they need, and players can designate level, and put a note as to what content they want. Use this tool effectively, and much of the problem is gone.
"- Continue to focus on mission-based content. Missions are the best thing to happen to Everquest."
Tell me, what is the difference between a Mission, and a Quest? Apparently, the UI. Missions are the Quests we have asked for for years, and I agree, more is better.
"- Add missions for groups of three or four players instead of six."
Agree, and would add missions for Solo (some of us LIKE to solo sometimes) Duo, and any combination of group numbers.
"- Add an in-game group scheduling tool to help players find groups during certain play times."
Not a problem solver for me.
"- Add better rewards to single-group encounters so raiders and non-raiders group together more often."
To me, THIS is the biggest issue to be solved. I am in a non-raiding family guild, and do not have the time or flexibility to raid. I feel like I am a second class citizen because of it, and ostracized from the groups of raiders out there. Bringing these groups together will be the best thing they can do. Things have improved, and I'd like to see it improve even more.
"- Do not rely on soloing to solve the grouping problem."
In the process, don't make Soloing non viable.
Comment Posted by: Perc the Shadow Bard on June 2, 2005 12:06 PM
I agree with Mac on everything but one item.
"To me, THIS is the biggest issue to be solved. I am in a non-raiding family guild, and do not have the time or flexibility to raid. I feel like I am a second class citizen because of it, and ostracized from the groups of raiders out there. Bringing these groups together will be the best thing they can do. Things have improved, and I'd like to see it improve even more."
They can't make things too equal or the rewards for raiding would drop. The non-raiders out number the raiders, but I see no reason that the two can't mesh. I regularly like to take non-raiders who haven't been to places like RSS or Fire or something and group with them there. I love to watch the drool as items that would normally rot become the greatest treasure of someone. WTB more fun non-raiders that aren't all obsessed with grinding and more interested about checking out new places and taking some risks instead of the same group of 6 Qvic geared toons laying waste to RSS or even 2 grouping in Qvic. Just my opinion...
Comment Posted by: on June 2, 2005 12:06 PM
Transit time also needs to be addressed. Doesn't help to spend 20 minutes putting a group together but everyone is scattered all over the place and then spend another 20 minutes getting everyone in spot or to the zone.
Faster time to get group going + faster time to get to zone = more fun. Do we really need to run through a zone for the 300th time? Is it fun to wait around in Riftseekers for 20 minutes while someone died to from a trained see-invis named in MPG? Fun - not.
Option:
*Have to obtain an "Essence of zonename" from a mob either through kills/quest/hail.
*Return the item and plat to a Magnus.
*Magnus will now port to/from that location for you.
*Add Magnuses to locations where it is currently taking people longer run times to get groups started, especially those with no porters, or those where cleric dies and has to run back:
*Lavastorm dragon head
*Riftseekers
*South Karana (outside Infected Paw)
*Western Wastes
*Arena (inside, redo zone)
*Barindu
*KodTaz
*The Grey (for ssraeshza)
*Grimling Forest (for Acrylia Caverns)
*Maidens Eye (Akehva/VT)
Comment Posted by: Inmountains on June 2, 2005 02:44 PM
[Please avoid personal attacks even when defending someone as important and deserving as me =) - Loral]
Loral brings up some very good points. I would like to see a "Return to Bind" beside the "Return to Home" button that can be used 6 hours after a character is logged.
Nice essay Loral!
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 2, 2005 04:52 PM
"Tell me, what is the difference between a Mission, and a Quest? "
The difference is not the UI. There are quests in the task window that we still call quests. A "mission" is much like an LDoN adventure. It takes 3-6 players into an instanced version of a normal zone (currently for all DoN zones except Broodlands, as well as North Qeynos, Hate's Fury, Unrest and Befallen). Once inside you're given various quest like objectives, such as collecting items or killing monsters.
So, the difference would be that missions take place almost entirely in their own instanced zone and are for groups.
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 2, 2005 06:39 PM
Maitreya is correct. The difference between a quest and a mission is huge, though hard for me to articulate even to the developers who designed them.
A mission is a Group quest, not just a quest. It is a quest your WHOLE group has, not just one member or even six members individually.
Take a look at the DON missions and then look at the armor quests in EQ2. In EQ2's armor quests you have each person with their own quest that requires them to seek help from others. Even though it takes a group to complete it, its an individual quest, not a group quest.
Its more than just the convenience of having every member on the same spot at the same time. It is a matter of cohesiveness and fellowship. Your group is treated as a single entity working together to a single goal. This isn't a quest Loral received and then shared with the others. It is a quest his whole group received and will accomplish together as a team.
This is the core thing missing from WoW and EQ2. Neither game treats the group as a single cohesive entity. NPCs don't give groups quests in those games, it just gives individual quests.
In a more detailed look, group quests ensure that every member on the mission is at the same point and receives a reward for their work. You never have six guys working so one guy can get a sword. You never have a group of six with two people missing the quest, two with 4 items they need, and two with 12 items.
Group cohesiveness is the holy grail for MMOGs. MMOG developers need to constantly and continually remind us and themselves why MMOGs are different than Final Fantasy VII, Morrowind, and Neverwinter Nights. Group quests, missions, are the way to do that.
Comment Posted by: Tarzel on June 2, 2005 11:29 PM
Loral,
Good posts, but I am a little disappointed that the loot all button on my dead body is missing from your agenda.
LDON changed things. I could easily find a group, or move to a camp and find adventurious players. It was almost like Orc Hill. I was almost assured to find people there ready to group. Then new content came out, and the rewards were devalued. LDON camps dried up.
DON had the same effect until most people bought the 1-3 items they wanted. Not once did I need to use the lfg tool to have fun in the beginning of these expansions.
I think anything to help people group up is a good thing. Whether it is imrpoving the LFG tool, or solid content that draws players together.
Here is a recent problem. Why is the raid tool 72 players but the most recent top end content limited to 54 players? I am in a high end raiding guild. We raid every night. Every night we have several people who cannot raid or participate? I know some of will scream - Zerg. I say develop the top end game to support (read Challenge) 72 players. I love working with my guildmates and figuring out a challenge. Honestly, I think the events are puzzles. There is nothing like solving (read winning) the content. I know the people who sit out and read the raid chat do not get the same thrill as I do watching the mob fall.
If new players don't have to look at their spell book for 35 levels than I want a button to pick up all of my gear at one time. I am not kidding.
Tarzel
Comment Posted by: Teremar on June 3, 2005 02:16 AM
The trouble with 72-person raids is that very few guilds can field that kind of force. Heck, most guilds can't put together a third of that. A few raiding organizations work. But for most people, the only 72-person raid they can get into is so open that there's little cohesion, a collective learning process that is painfully slow at best, and worst of all very little incentive for individuals to behave.
I agree with SOE that the mistake was ever allowing 72 in a raid and going to a limit of 54 in recent content is wise. Personally I'd go with 30--any more than that and I don't feel like anything I do really matters unless it's a mistake that wipes the raid. And 30 is a lot easier to put together. But that's just me--I know some people love the sense of being part of a truly massive force.
I'm with you on a loot all button 100% though.
Comment Posted by: Hemdell and Glamdrigg on June 3, 2005 02:47 AM
I think one way to get the "community" together would be to limit the guild size. When EQ started Guilds would have to join together to raid. There would be alliances and guild wars. These WERE FUN TIMES. By limiting guild sizes we would be getting back to TALKING to other people and guilds. Giant guilds would no longer have walls that shut them out from the rest of the game. Community would come back to EQ again I think.
Why can't we port to the guild lobby Magnus form the other Magnus. I can go from Lobby to BB but not back. Should be an easy fix. I agree that there should be more quick access to the other long run zones with more Magnus.
I also agree with the notion of being able to do LDoN's and missions with solo or duo or more. The LDoN is pretty much dead anyway. This way the content would still be used and could satisfy the ones (like me) who have not completed all they wanted to due to no one doing them. DoN will suffer the same fate when the next expansion comes out. I'm sure that i'm not the only one out there who has not gone deep into that expansion yet.
I would like to see a NPC that will you could pay to buff you. It could be alittle expensive as to not put the Clerics and Chanters
out of buisness. Just the basic buff not extended. This would help the duo and solo peeps in the off hours get out there fighting quicker. I know some won't like this one, but if you are doing a small grp or soloing in off peak hours you really can't fight all that well. Them game has changed to the point that if you don't have a KEI and/or at least Temp/Virt/Convict/9 or Steelcloak yer single grp content play is ineffective.
Sorry to piss off the Purists but the game has changed a bit.
Comment Posted by: BigFoot on June 3, 2005 02:59 AM
Well I think the POK ruined EQ. I know EQ is a game. I guess the POK is like the UN in real life and we all know how well that works.
I quit playing EQ because factions lost any meaning in POK. In real life I have to be nice to everyone, at least polite. In game, in EQ I was a TROLL, feared and even hated. Then POK, just made everybody the same. Can somebody please explane why all the races in a FANISTY world should magicaly get along in one place, is that good story telling? Content just stopped being meaningful to me. I do not know any thing about WOW except what I read here. I just wonder if they have mixxed race cities in WoW? Do they hunt by Factions in WoW or just by race?
Comment Posted by: Seduca on June 3, 2005 04:37 AM
Maitreya - "And how would mentoring work in EQ? I've never played EQ2, so have no idea what it's like. Could someone please explain it for us non-EQ2 players? "
Mentoring in EQ 2 works like this... You group with the person of lower level and then right click their name to a mentor option. When you do this your level is lowered to match the person you are mentoring, and you can only use spells up to the person you are mentoring. All the adjustments are made as far as abilitys, and gear also so that you are actualy down to that persons level. How ever when you are mentoring you suffer a exp penalty depending on how much higher you are.
The person you are mentoring however gets a small expirence bonus while being mentored (like 5 % or something)
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 3, 2005 05:10 AM
Thanks, Seduca. Sounds neat.
Now, on to PoK:
"Well I think the POK ruined EQ."
Yes, the certainly ruined the entire game by adding one city that made things easier.
"I know EQ is a game. I guess the POK is like the UN in real life and we all know how well that works."
You mean very well?
"I quit playing EQ because factions lost any meaning in POK. In real life I have to be nice to everyone, at least polite."
The whole "faction doesn't matter anymore" thing is getting old. The old factions didn't just go away, they're all still there. Faction still matters to me, and to plenty of other players I'm sure. It matters to any good role-player, it matters to anyone who likes to visit their old cities. Noone's stopping you from worrying about your faction except for you.
"In game, in EQ I was a TROLL, feared and even hated. Then POK, just made everybody the same. Can somebody please explane why all the races in a FANISTY world should magicaly get along in one place, is that good story telling?"
Yes, I think it is. That's the story behind the plane. They're all scholars. They no longer care about the things people on Norrath care about. They no longer seek power, or riches. They no longer want eliminate thier enemies. They simply want to study and learn as much as they can. I think that's a fine story.
"Content just stopped being meaningful to me."
To each his own, I guess.
"I do not know any thing about WOW except what I read here. I just wonder if they have mixxed race cities in WoW? Do they hunt by Factions in WoW or just by race?"
I'm with you in this boat, except WoW doesn't seem that interesting to me. Oh well.
Sorry, I guess that post hit my rant button. I hope I didn't sound to angry. I hope I did sound to fanboi-ish. Y'know, just because.
I am very much opposed to the limit on guild size. A guild should not have to tell an interested member he/she can't join just because they're at their cap. I see where you're coming from, but the end result of guilds working together isn't worth the cost of people being unable to join guilds of friends or other like-minded players just beacuse of a size limitation.
Oh, and add my name to the petition for a "loot all" button.
Comment Posted by: Artek on June 3, 2005 07:03 AM
Loral you hit the nail on the head. The one thing that will keep EQ going while EQ2/WoW and soon to be Vanguard and many other MMOs are on the market will be to fix the longstanding LFG issue. Sure if ur a well desired class (cleric) AND in the 60+ game you may not have issues with LFG but all of the pre 60 game is having this problem even after the merger and this is where the new EQ generation will come from. If they are required to box a high level toon to level efficiently or enjoy EQ at all they will likely close account right there and move on to a game that is more gentle to new comers. It has nothing to do with making the game easier or even easy its just a fact that to work a MMO you require the multi part wich EQ currently lacks. How many of ur friends have boxed clerics shamans druids etc etc and how many do you have. I know almost everyone i meet has at least 1 and this just shows how horrible the LFG life is.
Thank god you also mentioned that solo content isnt the answer. If you put in loads of solo content (World of warcraft) you essentially remove the multiplayer part of the MMO and it just becomes a chat room with the option to group. Might as well play a single player RPG on Xbox or somethin wich probably has better graphics and zero lag.
Keep up the good work Loral i think your concerns represent 90% of EQ today including most raiders who have more common issues with casuals than either like to admit.
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 3, 2005 08:08 AM
Though it isn't on the evil agenda, I will make sure to bully for the loot-all button. It's come up once or twice with the developers before and it something just about everyone who dies desires.
There's faction in both Omens of War and Dragons of Norrath and I don't hear many people saying that they like it in those circumstances.
SOE stated at the last Summit, about a year ago, that 54 would be the new magic number for raids. It's been that way in Gates, Omens, and Dragons now and its likely to continue. A guild's best bet is to leave six or so slots open above 50 to help pick up stragglers. As guilds lose a few members, it's better to slim down than bring up 72. With today's levels and power, any of the content in the game can be defeated with 54 people including POP.
True factions are lost the minute a high elf and a dark elf hunt in the same hunting group. We've all already decided to throw away our racial differences and hunt for a common goal. I have no problem treating all PCs as though they are a different sort of race, the adventurer race.
The problem with factions is that they split people up and EQ's goal should be bringing them together.
From the PoK perspective, I suppose its important to remember that PoK already is the center of EQ's population all on its own. It has hundreds more people in it than most starting cities. There is little to nothing SOE can do to change that. Rebuilding old cities won't do it. Quests won't do it. New graphics won't do it.
So rather than fight the hundreds that go there, why not help improve it to give it the feel we like so much from our own cities? How about adding an elven neighborhood, a human neighborhood, a shady side of town for Trolls, ogres, and dark elves, and an underground neighborhood for gnomes, dwarves, and halflings. PoK is already the center of the cities, nothing can be done about that now, but the key is fixing it up so its OUR city and has the flavor everyone feels it lack.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on June 3, 2005 08:53 AM
I would disagree with you Loral when you say SoE need to help players find groups. The mechanism to find groups is greatly enhanced from original EQ. You can call up a list of LFG players, specify what level range, players can specify what sort of groups they are looking for.
You can meet up in a central zone, which has merchants for most supplies and components, where Portals can take you part or all of the way to your destination.
To see why people cant get groups you need to dig a little deeper.
To me it breaks down to 3 things. Gear, Lvls, Usefulness to group/ability to solo.
1. Gear - Dont give people gear they havent earned. It makes it too easy. Let them fight for it, buy it, get it from guildies etc. I think OOW drops and DON merchants have made this easier anyway. Sure introduce some better quests, I liked the idea, stolen from WOW, but who cares, WOW stole its whole existance from EQ, that wearing more than 1 piece of an armour type adds to its stats. But in the main you get gear from xp'ing.
2. Lvls. There are less lower level players now. After all one of the goals of the game is to level up. SoE have already introduced HOT SPOT zones, to increase the amount of xp.
3. Usefulness in Groups/Ability to Solo. This is the key. Once you sort this out the other 2 fall into place. If you give classes more than one use in a group you develop versatility and therefore make a new group combination possible.
On the other hand, you can develop a class so that if groups dont pan out they can solo.
Lets look at some examples;
1. Cleric. Primary Healer. Group use: High. Solo:Low.
With Clerics I'd say little or no balancing in the two areas was needed. Clerics are highluy sought after by groups.
2. Magician. Caster. Group use: Medium/Low. Solo: Medium/High
I say mages are low on groups only because they sometimes dont fall into a primary catagory. If a group has no healer they wont look for a Mage. However if in group mages are good dps and have a wealth to offer the group, some of which makes things easier but isnt essential. Solo, Mages are excellent, but have been hurt by the introduction of Summoning mobs, and increasing mob DPS.
3. Warrior. Primary Tank. Group Usefulness: Medium. Solo: Low. Warriors need real help. Passed over as tanks because of their lack of utility, many groups often plum for a Pally (Agro), or SK (Puller). As for solo, its non-existant for Warriors. Of the Plate tanks they are the worst.
Sort out a classes usefulness to a group balanced with their ability to solo, and you may sort out a lot of problems.
Comment Posted by: Tarzel on June 3, 2005 09:08 AM
Loral,
Hooray!
Thanks for the information on the raid size.
Tarzel
Comment Posted by: on June 3, 2005 12:35 PM
Limits suck.
72 sucked when trying to fit 80 people into time.
54 sucks every day trying to get 60+ people into any instanced exped type content.
24 sucks for the smaller don expeditions.
6 sucks when a group of pickup people gear and aa's range from velious armor to anguish. (albeit the better geared/aa'd people will tend to carry a larger load)
As to WHY guilds tend to over-recruit is related to people and logistics. You can't control players playtimes, and not every player will be able to log in consistently... therefore somedays will be lucky to get 35 people, and the next day you may have 60+ all wanting to do something..
Since I am normally one of the higher play time folks, I often volunteer to sit out when there are greater number of folks on limited stuff... not because I am lazy or don't want to experience the content, but to do my part to ensure that my fellow guildmates have a chance to participate when they are able.
I personally would like to see the single group limit increased to 8. Instanced group stuff could possibly be left at 6, although I'm sure that for many exped's 8 wouldn't be too bad.
With a new limit of 8 player groups, new content should be designed with this larger group flexibility in mind... not everyone will have 6, 7, or 8 players in a group... so we need smarter content designed to meet the needs of the group in question.
And please, don't bother with the whole spiel about how its possible to do a 7 or 8 person raid...
It's not the same as an 8 person group.. there are logistics and social differences... heals and ports are a prime example, and also the social issue of who gets grouped with who, playing favorites etc..
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 3, 2005 01:55 PM
"Since I am normally one of the higher play time folks, I often volunteer to sit out when there are greater number of folks on limited stuff... not because I am lazy or don't want to experience the content, but to do my part to ensure that my fellow guildmates have a chance to participate when they are able"
This is why I think pickup grouping is so important. There's always that one or two guys left out from whatever thing the in-crowd is doing. Pickup groups give them an opportunity to find another group and still have fun. Perhaps they will even meet more friends.
Shameless plug, I wrote a sister-piece to this Evil Agenda, an article called "The Importance of Pick-up Groups" over at Caster's Realm:
http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=8933
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 3, 2005 02:24 PM
Some breaking news. A patch on June 24th will include the new tutorial, new potions to help with soloing, and an instanced Plane of Time. Here's the official word:
http://eqlive.station.sony.com/updates/upcoming_updates.jsp
"Our next update is tentatively scheduled for June 22nd. We will be introducing new changes to the tutorial zones and making several improvements to the newbie experience. In addition, we will be fully instancing the Plane of Time, adding a number of new healing potions, and making additional changes to classes including introducing some new spells.
Keep your eyes open for some exciting events that will be taking place in Norrath. You won't want to miss out.
Watch this spot for more details coming soon…"
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 5, 2005 04:22 AM
They updated.
Upcoming for June
Our next update is tentatively scheduled for June 22nd. We will be introducing new changes to the tutorial zones and making several improvements to the newbie experience. In addition, we will be fully instancing the Plane of Time, adding a number of new healing potions, and making additional changes to classes including introducing some new spells.
Keep your eyes open for some exciting events that will be taking place in Norrath. You won't want to miss out.
New Potions!
· With the next update, we’ll be adding a whole series of new healing and buff potions to the game. These potions can be created through trade skills and can also be purchased off various merchants.
New Spells and Disciplines!
· New fear spells that will affect higher level creatures.
· An upgrade to Word of Morell for Enchanters
· Lower level versions of the melee guard disciplines for Shadowknights and Paladins.
· Lower level spells in the Spirit of the Panther line for Shaman.
· Lower level spells in the Ward of Righteousness line for Clerics.
Plane of Time Instanced!
· Every guild will now get their own version of the zone when they enter it.
New Tutorial!
· The new player tutorial now supports players up to level 10 and has been completely redone with new art, new monsters, and new quests.
· Many new quests have been added to continue the learning from levels 10 to 20.
New Live Event!
· Dark forces are stirring within the heart of Neriak.
Comment Posted by: JECAGT on June 5, 2005 10:20 AM
On the LFG problem, find a way for me to be shopping in the bazaar with my bazaar mule but list my level 70 Enchanter as LFG.
Most of us have more then 1 character on a account and why can't we list another player from that account as LFG?
JECAGT
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 5, 2005 10:29 AM
I wonder how Time will work for multi-guild alliances. I got into time with another guild, I wonder if that is still possible today.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 5, 2005 02:49 PM
Well, that depends on what they mean by an insance for your guild. You'd be out of luck if each instance was actually attached to a guild, but it probably works like expeditions where you all just get a lockout timer, and they say guild because they assume it'll be one guild having their own instance, not a bunch of guilds or many people from different guilds.
I guess will find out on the 22nd.
Comment Posted by: Sunshadow on June 5, 2005 11:03 PM
If we could get group invites across zones. Then it may be possible to add something the the guild lobby that works similar to the soulstones. In that you buy a port stone, then give it to the magus and you get ported next to the Group leader. This way groups can hunt in out of the way places knowing that if a replacement is coming he won't take an hour to get there. Also the person joining the group won't have to worry about where the group is.
Some zones may need to be excluded from this but it would make grouping take less time.
Comment Posted by: on June 6, 2005 12:47 PM
I would assume it uses the expedition system and that the different phases use the lockout in the same or similar manner as tacvi and anguish.
So multiguild alliances would work in exactly the same manner they currently do... everything revolves around who is in the raid at the start of the exped and then ppl can /dzadd as needed.
Once your have an active lockout, you wouldn't be able to join another expedition that is not locked out.
Comment Posted by: on June 6, 2005 01:34 PM
I would love to be able to filter out people in the bazaar when doing a /who. Convenience, nothing more.
I'm indifferent about adding new missions or enhancing the lfg tool but I can see where their might be benefit for some. My game <> Your game but both co-exist.
Have fun at the summit/ff Loral and don't lose the sense of wonder.
Comment Posted by: on June 6, 2005 05:52 PM
I wish they would the ability to change your sex. A lot of mangina's like myself made female toons for a lark and ended up leveling high. After 400+ AA, you can't start over easy.
Bring on the sex changes!
Comment Posted by: xsi kal on June 7, 2005 11:14 PM
I still want new models. If they are serious about bringing in new players to EQ, they need to update the character models to replace the horribly flawed luclin models and the pretty but very very low poly original models.
These new character models of course have to also be much less resource intensive than the current luclin models, but that should be easy enough to do, to be honest.
No matter how pretty the world becomes through updated zones and new expansions, the character models still look like they all got beaten with the ugly stick, and move like they have been on a bender for the last fifteen years.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on June 8, 2005 04:15 AM
Low polycount is ok if you have very good artists.
Raiding probably imposes low poly counts but still, we could have much nicer graphics
Comment Posted by: Loral on June 8, 2005 08:34 AM
Yeah, there are a lot of factors to consider with the topic of new models. I don't really bring it up anymore because its pretty clear that SOE knows folks want it. There are a few reasons why we aren't seeing new models any time soon:
- New models are very expensive to create. Each player model is far more complex than creature models.
- There's nothing to say they won't spend a mint making new player models and the players will still hate them and use the originals. They spent a lot of money creating the Luclin ones and comments like those above don't really justify the cost, do they. To test this theory, ask a bunch of players how they like the EQ2 and WOW models - you will get very mixed reviews.
- For the cost of new player models that we may or may not like SOE can build us entire zones full of new artwork and new sets of creature models. It's hard to argue that the time and money isn't better spent on new content.
All of that being said, I still want new player models. I happen to like both Warcraft and EQ2 models and I bet, if they put enough talent into them, that I could get used to new EQ1 models as well. Unfortunately, history shows that a lot of EQ players are very hard to please. Even after putting out all new character models you'd have fifty posts from people saying they still want to use the old ones.
It's a hard cost to justify.
Comment Posted by: on June 8, 2005 12:23 PM
Here is the simple answer to new models.
Make HORSES work on OLD MODELS.
99% of the reason why people use luclin models to begin with are for HORSES/DROGMARS.
Die luclin models.
Comment Posted by: on June 8, 2005 12:26 PM
Short of new player models, I'd like to see some new armor models. The Fine Plate model created for a level 10 warrior should look different from the sick new bp you just looted from Anguish.
SOE had a golden opportunity to add some Asian influenced armor graphics with DON. A samurai set would be a novel sight. Perhapse give rogues visible ninja style face masks.
The color variations provided by LoY dyes only go so far as far as customization. They also cause part of the problem. At one time you could identify where a piece of armor came from by what color it was. Golden leaf, Royal Velium, Fierce Heraldic all had distinguishing colors...although I wasn't crazy about the pink breastplate.
They need to add some unique visible attributes. Spiked arms like the LoY trolls have, helms that don't look like they have a 8 inch dork affixed to the half-elf forehead, Breastplates with dragons, or skulls, or whatever etched into them.
It'd be neat to be able to look at someone and tell they've taken down Mata'Muram, for example, because they're wearing a unique looking item that only he drops.
Comment Posted by: on June 8, 2005 04:11 PM
Loral, the Luclin model are quite frankly ass and is no reason to try and justify not making new ones. Players would love new models created by a group of people who actually know something about anatomy.
Let's not forget their "fix" of the Luclin models with "more to come!". Once again, anyone could see how awful they animated and they pulled them claiming it was too soon. Still waiting...
I have no problems with how they look. I think most people would agree they look good. It's their god-awful, high school level animation. Seriously, watch one run and see how hurky-jerky they are. Not to mention their combat. The old models animate much much better.
[Please keep language clean.]
Comment Posted by: Pomaikai Po'okela on June 8, 2005 09:47 PM
I asked the Magnus if he had casted the spell, but he said I was living in a Fanisty world...
/sigh
Sometimes one just has to weep for the future.
Comment Posted by: Pants on June 9, 2005 04:11 AM
I hated the Luclin models and did not use them. The female faces look male, the males look stubby and clumsy, and most of the emotes look just plain stupid (what is up with the dance). In fact the whole Luclin release was a disaster besides the ugly models. The Umbra graphics system simply didn't work and had to be scrapped, Beastlords were horribly weak at first and Bazaar wasn't even ready till 6 months later even though it was advertised on the box.
I think it would be worth it if they did hire some outside talent to make some models. It could be done without interupting dev work and might be cheaper and faster. If they aren't willing to spend money to keep EQ up to date they can't expect to make more money on it as time passes by. Any newcomers to the genre will look at pictures of EQ and compare them to EQ2, WoW, CoH, Lineage 2 or whatever and pick one of the other games. If you want to keep your product selling, keep up with the times or die out eventually, that's business.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on June 9, 2005 05:02 AM
Loral Wrote:All of that being said, I still want new player models. I happen to like both Warcraft and EQ2 models and I bet, if they put enough talent into them, that I could get used to new EQ1 models as well. Unfortunately, history shows that a lot of EQ players are very hard to please. Even after putting out all new character models you'd have fifty posts from people saying they still want to use the old ones.
I personally like the models for the Squareenix version of Everquest 2 they are working on for the japan market.. I personally think if they do ever go ahead with a plan to make new models it should have a tiered approval system.. like this
1. Create several varietys of sketchs depicting what the new models could look like.. keep them as realistic as possible (IE.. the sketch could actually work as a model in game)
2. work around the difficultys of implementing new models by implementing them one race at a time. that way you could have some time in between for feedback.
3. Remember that even with the best plans someone will find something to complain about because thats how they get their satisfaction in life.
I think that they could easilly start implementing models now.. and cheaply.. especially if they hire someone to do it over time.. they would pay the company as they complete the models.. and on a model by model basis.. working from the easiest models to redo.. to the hardest..
BTW I know this doesnt have anything to do with new models per say but
Rowyl Wrote on the forums:It sounds like you aren't really having a bug occur, you just want EQ to be faster with luclin models on raids. The problem is that luclin character models are all between 2500-3000 polygons and have around 30 textures each. There are some planned optimizations for them, but I can't really say when or how long it will be.
- Rowyl
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=tech&message.id=95763#M95763
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 9, 2005 02:16 PM
"2. work around the difficultys of implementing new models by implementing them one race at a time. that way you could have some time in between for feedback."
This is what I think about implementing new models too. However, there are 30 models (15 races x 2 genders). If they do one at first and no others, a lot of people who use the other 29 are probably going to get upset.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on June 9, 2005 03:41 PM
Almost all races can use the same body model (froglocks, ogres and trolls would be the exception).
Iksars are just normal body with maybe some diferent hands and an attached tail, similar for vahshir.
Heads are one thing that should be made diferent for all races.
As for armor, make them all unified, this is the biggest drag the curent system has, if you have to make 15 models, you must do 15 diferent types of leather armor. Change it so that a set look the same on all and you will only have to make 3 or so armor types and not only you end up with models that are created faster, but also open room for amazing expancion options later on, just as we do with weapons now.
Comment Posted by: Kinladar on June 10, 2005 09:22 AM
Loral,
While grouping does indeed need some serious angles to improve the reasons to want to group together, I don't think missions are the correct way to go at all. It again pushes the group, or get nothing angle that has been killing EQ as a game for years.
There needs to be solo content that is truely rewarding.
There needs to be Group content that is truely rewarding.
There needs to be Raid content that is truely rewarding.
At this time, we have 1 and a half. Raids are almost to a tee always going to give good rewards. Groups, sometimes get decent rewards, but nothing I think anyone would write home about. Soloers get EXP and that's about it.
There should be ways, quested, or just kills that allow all manners of playstyle to enjoy the game, advance, and have fun.
And I don't mean a solo event where you get a quest, go kill a single mob, and get some goodies, I wouldn't mind at all if it was a longer quest system, requiring several stops/steps to accomplish it. You'd really have to in order to prevent exploitation. Also a longer quest design/series of events provides immersion in the game.
The same would of course have to apply to any group dynamics. But perhaps a bit shorter in time investments. Depends.
I think you can have group quests, that don't need to be missions. IE WoW's quest system works so that if you have 3 of the five people in the group needing a drop from Lord_Boss_01, when you kill that NPC, each one gets thier own drop. So instead of having to make the group wait to kill that same NPC 3 times, you only have to do it once, and then you can move on to something else and continue to have fun.
That is where EQ totally missed the boat, in how quest items are distributed. I can't begin to count the number of times I did a quest with a pickup group, we were gathering the items, player _01 gets all thiers, and then boogies. Don't get me wrong, there are some collection quests in WoW like that still, but they are not nearly as common, and drops are signifigantly higher per mob in WoW, than EQ has ever set.
It should never be only about raiders, only about grouping, or only about soloing.
It all needs to be balanced, and the sooner the players, devs, and media accept that in the EQ world, the sooner EQ can get into what makes these games something you want to play, fun.
Comment Posted by: ozzerno on June 18, 2005 06:54 AM
just a comment to the idea of soloers being lazy.it takes alot more time and effort to lvl by yourself as the game is geared toward groups.the main reason grouping is being forced is simple economics.Groups are no easier to find now,many people have taken up running bots to be able to still play hence the economics it makes more monitary sense for soe to push groups w/out making groups esier to find because it causes people to buy more than 1 account.Its really that simple.
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