I got into a fight at Quarks last night when someone said I looked like a Klingon.

Notes from the West

by Loral on June 10, 2005

I find myself with a moment to set quill to parchment and give you, dear reader, a glimpse at the treasures of the West. This is not the sort of treasure you may be used to, glittering gems, jewels, or plates of gold (I lost 20 bucks at the slots in about twelve seconds). I offer a far more valuable treasure: the golden vaults of knowledge.

Ok, enough metaphor. This article will act as a working set of notes as this year's Fan Faire in Las Vegas, June 2005, continues on. Keep an eye on this page for the latest notes and links to the articles and pictures of others.

Let us begin:

11:00 am, Friday 10 June:

The next expansion is called Depths of Darkhollow. It appears to be an underdark-ish expansion but details will be thicker during the official announcement on Saturday. The devs seem very excited about it and give the impression that they plan to take it in a new direction. One unattributed quote: "No other MMORPG has done this yet". We'll know more tomorrow. Oh yeah, John Smedley, CEO for SOE, does a mean Axel Rose impression.

The new tutorial was also a big topic. SOE plans to release the tutorial, a level 1 to 10 instanced zone with a variety of quests and missions, will be released in a single stand-alone format, both on CD and download. New players can sign up for a station account and play the tutorial on a special server known as "escape". New players can play up to level 10 without having to put in a credit card. The tutorial has all new artwork, mostly from DON but some unique models such as the Kobolds. This lets player get a good taste of EQ without having to commit anything more than download time.

This whole package will be known as "Escape to Norrath".

Gemdiver, the manager for Caster's Realm, has an excellent article on the EQ Community Summit including some great labeled pictures of the devs.

Kytheria from EQLive posted some excellent pictures from the Summit. If you look really closely you can see the top of my head.

At the present I can hear lord Brenlo mocking the players of the PvP tournament. The winner of the level 50 tournament walks away with a 42" plasma TV so I imagine the competition is fierce. Periodic release of lions into the arena helps keep people honest.

I have had many conversations with the EQLive developers including a couple of conversations with Craig Knapp, the Everquest producer. Craig has an excellent wide view of the game. He knows, as do the EQLive developers, what is important and what is not. Fun and community are paramount. Craig's enthusiasm for the "Escape to Norrath" trial and Rytan's work on the tutorial and the level 10 to 20 quests show their commitment to bring new players to EQ.

All of the developers seem quite excited about the announcement of the new expansion. No doubt, releasing the first information about an expansion like this to a live audience can be nervewracking.

1pm Thursday, 10 June

I posted some Las Vegas Fan Faire pictures. I will be posting more of these throughout the day as well.

2pm Thursday, 10 June

Rumors and whispers about the new expansion run wild.

There was a lot of discussion about cheating and hacking and general customer support issues - a topic that gives me an ice-cream headache. The programmers are building tools and techniques to trap a lot of the typical cheats. A lot of the summit reps felt that better reporting on the numbers of cheaters caught and banned would help scare away cheaters and help the rest of us see that things are getting done.

SOE mentioned that they were seeing a fair amount of people returning to EQ after some adventures out in EQ2 and WoW.

I have a couple more details on the "Escape to Norrath" package. Craig Knapp mentioned that the CD for the next expansion will include the 400 meg Escape to Norrath demo so that players can give the discs away. Any deals for distributing Escape to Norrath on CDs in magazines or hand-outs at retail chains are still under discussion. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see EtN passed out frequently on CDs.

SOE wants to make it as easy as possible for new players to get a hold of the demo, install it, and get playing without difficulty or invasive requests for credit cards. The trial also has an unlimited duration. This isn't a 10 day or 15 day trial. Players don't have to worry about installing it only when they have the most free time, players are free to play at their leisure before any commitment.

This is something that frustrated me with my purchase of WoW. When I first bought Warcraft I found it interesting (frustrating) that I had to enter a credit card number before I was even able to patch or play a single day. Aside from nice box-art I had no guarentee that I would like WoW at all (I ended up liking it a lot, but thats not the point). A limited trial of some sort helps me see what I am paying for, especially when I have already paid $50 for the retail box.

I have had excellent responses to both Loral's Evil Agenda, Las Vegas Edition and Loral's Evil EQ2 Agenda. It sounds like a few of these ideas have already been kicked around the SOE offices with positive responses. Some of them, like the Plane of Knowledge issues, are very contested even within the dev team. That is something we don't often realize. Many of the arguments we have about uber vs casual or class issues or models or the focus on knowledge all happen in the halls of SOE before we ever learn enough to debate them ourselves. The end result are decisions often built from the debates of many people, not just one person's single decision (even Smed).

Oops, another thing on Escape to Norrath. If you log into Test, you will see the new server-based newbie chat channels. The Escape server will be no different but nice folks, such as yours truly, are able to join that chat channel and help folks out from our live servers with a typical /join escape.newbie or whatever the channel happens to be named.

I suggested some sort of big-brother big-sister program and other folks chimed in by recommending that some system where helping newbies awards leadership experience.

Oops, sai Maddoc just sat down to me. I must be in trouble...

2:36pm, Thursday, 10 June

Yes, Character Models...

The short answer: We won't be seeing character models any time soon. SOE, all of those individual folks I mentioned above, are all interested in adding new character models. They articulated the complexity a little bit (I get frustrated with players who micro-manage SOE so I try to avoid such statistics). Each Luclin model, including new animations such as multiple weapon strikes, take up over one hundred individual animations per model with 32 models. Each piece of different armor requires its own animations. The total number continues to grow and grow. The final number, 8.5 man years just for models alone, still doesn't include everything it would take to add new models. I know nothing about character animation but the devs seem to shake their head when they talk about how the Luclin models were done. Here's another interesting statistic: it takes the same amount of work to rebuild one new player race and sex that it takes to add in all of the new models in Dragons of Norrath - including the dragons.

When I brought up the new EQ2 models - a set of asian-friendly models soon to be released - I heard that there was no silver bullet for those models, it took a lot of time and it was part of the deal between SOE and the company hosting the asian servers to make it more friendly to that environment. Here's a funny bit. Moorgard stated that the asian audience demands mouse-movement and one-handed gameplay so they never have to put down their cigarettes. That cracked me up.

SOE doesn't seem to hold the same worry that I hold. They aren't concerned that a new set of models would not be well received. After the mixed reviews I hear about Luclin models, WoW models, EQ2 models, and the new asian EQ2 models, everyone has a different opinion and paying 8.5 man years for models that may receive similar criticisms doesn't seem like a real good investment to me.

So we will have to see. New character models are a topic SOE hears a lot. By their words it is something they really want to fix. New character models are not off of SOE's master to-do list but it isn't something we will see any time soon.

4:17pm Thursday, 10 June

I just got back from the "EQ: Progression of Power" discussions. A lot of individual class issues were discussed with a general theme that life is really hard in Anguish and people seem do die a lot - go figure.

Here's a micro-list of topics and answers:

Blind, it's the human crash bug that even R.A Salvatore mentioned in the intro to Rogue's Hour. The EQ team wants to fix it but its not a priority.

Endurance regen: The devs built the current endurance regen based on no regen components. They don't intend to have any endurace regen items or spells. However, they recognize that downtime in general is a problem and hope to come up with a solution.

Ranger discs: A ranger wondered why he hasn't received a disc since Kunark. Since rangers have hybrid spells, the discs for melees are meant to make up for that. There's no intention to add more ranger discs.

Cleric CH isn't enough anymore: A cleric was concerned that existing heals aren't powerful enough for existing mobs. The devs disagree. It's hard for a reason.

Cleric Melee: I didn't get the answer to this one but Saroc, the cleric represenative, asked what the intention is for clerics soloing.

PoP backflagging: There are a lot of bugs with backflagging including holes in the quests and no way to track it. Why don't they just open up everything up to Time?

Cleric Plate Class issues: Clerics are a plate class but get eaten a lot. The dev team recognizes the extreme gap between tanks and non-tanks. Tanks can survive but non-tanks are completely destroyed. There is no intent to let any other class really tank but they do see the gap growing.

Warrior's epic 1.5 and 2.0 clicky has too long a casting time when getting hit and no channeling skill means it will always be interrupted. SOE will look at the problem but instant cast items "are bad".

Cleric invis: SOE is looking for a way to stack invis potions and make improved invis potions easier to acquire.

Ranger bows: Why is the epic not a bow? Bow DPS is meant to trail behind melee dps because ranged attacks are safer than melee attacks with repostes, rampages, and AEs. SOE didn't want to gimp the epic 1.5 or 2.0.

Will Pally DPS vs undead get increased? There's a lot of weird issues with situational DPS. In general, Paladins aren't designed to out DPS other DPS classes even against undead. Rytan will look at the numbers vs undead, however.

Regeneration on raid wipes take too long. Downtime is a big issue in general and SOE wants to address it. However, you did die...

Loot all: SOE wants to do this and it's just a matter of finding a time.

Stuns as they are on Lucy are not accurate. SOE feels that the existing stuns, 5.2 seconds on NPCs, 10 seconds on PCs, is appropriate.

Delay death isn't enough. A player feels that delay death isn't enough of a boost. Frankly, an extra 250 hps feels like a lot for me.

Warriors with lightning reflex. I don't remember what this was.

Shaman Craigs, the Shaman CH: No complete heal will be further touched. Rytan feels they go outside the intent of the game. While heal improvements will occur, they will not occur with any of the three CHs.

I was just informed that Curt Shilling, EQ fan and major league baseball player, arrived.

6:47pm Thursday, 10 June

I added over twenty new pictures to Loral's Las Vegas Fan Faire photos.

12:42am Friday 11 June 2005

We saw a preview for Depths of Darkhollow last night. I have an article all written up and ready to go tomorrow afternoon.

However, I can say that SOE may have found a way to solve the problem of level 20 friends and level 70 friends grouping together, the character archetype problem for groups and raids, and the unused content problem in one swoop.

Depths of Darkhollow lets you pick a monster and fight alongside your friends. More details tomorrow but it looks very very cool.

Time for bed.

7:42pm 11 June 2005

It's been a crazy few days and I am bound to pay for it on Monday morning. I just posted a full Depths of Darkhollow preview on both Caster's Realm and Mobhunter (there are very slight differences but mostly the same). Everyone is really excited about it and the rumors run rampant.

I have a few other juicy tidbits as well. It appears we will see a full geometric and graphical revamp of both Nektulos forest and the Plane of Knowledge! Many times throughout the weekend, Craig Knapp has asked players what features would bring players together in one spot to find groups. He suggested Minigames. I suggested short-duration stackable buffs with regen and mana regen from a single unique NPC - just some bonus hp and mana for starting groups in this place. Any other suggestions are welcome so post them here if you have a good idea.

There are only a couple of events left this evening. I don't know how long I am going to last at the beach party tonight or how much more juicy information I might get as the night wears on and the alcohol runs free.

Mobhunter Exclusive: Slap in the face!

Though received positivly, not everyone understands the great wisdom of the Evil Agenda. See Kytherea's iron gauntlet treatment of the concern of the casual!

I'll have at least one more update before I travel home tomorrow. In the mean time, check out the Depths of Darkhollow screenshots.

Comment Posted by: Braxis on June 10, 2005 04:25 PM

The escape to Norrath project is very similar to my idea I brought up several months ago here on mobhunter. I'll have to find the old post and maybe I and copy and paste it here.

-Braxis

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 10, 2005 04:52 PM

I wrote something similar in my Six Steps to One Million Subscribers article:

http://mobhunter.com/000028.html

It's a good idea and I can't wait to see the freebie CD.

Comment Posted by: Xsi on June 10, 2005 05:31 PM

*cough* Character models *cough*

A dead horse? Maybe, but one I'm going to keep beating (with apologies to PETA).

Comment Posted by: Xsi on June 10, 2005 07:26 PM

Thanks for the follow-up, Loral, even the news on models was bad.

My issue here is that they were rumored to be outsourcing the effort last YEAR at the previous summit. 8.5 man years is NOT all that much to a dedicated modelling/animation firm... and the only direct cost in time to SOE would be the management of that project and support for the outsourcing. It is entirely possible we could have had new models and new animations by now, with only moderate impact on the release of DoN and DoDH.

Instead, it's now 2005 and we are still using either 6 year old models, or 3+ year old models which were horribly unoptimized, with animations that the developers have freely admitted were largely unfinished. Grumbuk has stated in the past that the luclin models are pretty much impossible to tweak or extend because they were done via a different process, and that it would actually be LESS work to redo them in the new process than to try and work within the old framework.

My gut sense is simply that the accountants at SOE don't want to pay for the change... and that is a very disheartening sign indeed, particularly given that the designers and developers are busy trying to attract new players to the game.

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 10, 2005 07:44 PM

Yes, it is about money. They could release new models with limited impact to the existing time frames but 8.5 man years (it's actually a lot more than that) is a lot of money and its not clear that it will help the bottom line of the game.

I always dread the model topic. We know SOE knows we want it but the answer has been the same for a while: We won't be seeing them any time soon.

By the way, keep watching the main article of this page. I will be updating it every couple of hours.

Comment Posted by: Nolrog on June 10, 2005 08:32 PM

I find the character model issue unfortunate. I seem to recall reading that Smedley said he wanted EQ to stand up graphically with the games being released today. You can't do that without new character models (not to mention zone revamps.)

I've run into a few people (not a lot, but a few) that have said the graphics are the thing keeping them out of EQ. 8.5 man years is a lot of time, but if could pay for itself by bringing in more people to the game, and keeping people that are already here longer.

I really hope this is reconsidered.

Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on June 10, 2005 09:37 PM

Shame they think that way about the models. I do can asure you, the current graphics SCARE AWAY NEW AND POSIBLE PLAYERS!!!!

I know people that tried the game and cursed me for recomending that aweful looking game to them.

New graphics wont directly increase sales on their own, that is obvious, but without them, many pick the boxes and put them back where they took them.

At the very least, they could apply the old model animations to the new ones...

Comment Posted by: Armarant on June 11, 2005 01:28 AM

Ogulbuk Wrote:Shame they think that way about the models. I do can asure you, the current graphics SCARE AWAY NEW AND POSIBLE PLAYERS!!!! I know people that tried the game and cursed me for recomending that aweful looking game to them.

....

Personally I think if they can completely remodel the old world with the same money it would cost to produce new models they should do that instead. as bad as luclin models are people notice how blocky some of the older world zones are sooner then the flaws in Luclin models.

in relooking at my desires. I would say..

1. Upgrade all old NPC models in old world zones to new ones. (useing old models for merchants in Rivervale just because they are Unique graphics shouldnt be a excuse anymore)

2. Upgrade all old zones graphically (moveing onto the older expansions if needed) because as fun greater fay was back then.. now its got terrible pathing. and chunky hills..

3. Upgrade all PC models to a new standard.. slimming down their CPU useage and makeing their movement more flowing.

From 1-3 graphic wise that is where I would stand should sony stand up today and say we have the money to do the stuff you want.. but only one at a time.

Comment Posted by: Lorsl on June 11, 2005 02:30 AM

They have already begun replacing old-world mobs with the new DON versions. New zones aren't likely but new missions in old zones are quite possible as the Unrest mission showed us. Rebuilding the graphics to old world zones isn't likely to bring players back there without all new content as well.

However, I have it on high authority that a full graphical and geometric rebuild of Knowledge is being discussed.

Comment Posted by: on June 11, 2005 08:00 AM

When someone doesn't want to do something they "embellish" how difficult it is to accomplish to prove their point. Happens all the time.

While there is no question new character models would take effort I think the 8.5 man years as a red herring. They don't want to do it. Remember, they didn't want to instance Time saying it was impossible.

It is up to the players to demand it.

Comment Posted by: Tarzel on June 11, 2005 11:12 AM

Loral,

Thanks for the update. Have fun and try and win your money back.

I was thinking about your first item on your Evil Agenda: Help people find groups, and the discussions about the LFG tool.

Add the capability to share your current task progression, or mission progression in the LFG tool. I can decide to share my progression level, and others should be able to quickly see the LFG players that are working on the same tasks / progression. If I log on and want to work on the next group task that I need for progressions. I should have asimple way of finding all the other players that are up to my current task. I know you can type it in the remarks section, but it should be more user friendly. If I could quickly see that a healer and tanks type are also at the task: Snowfoot Revenge, than I can send them a tell and try and team up and complete that task together. It would be benificial to all the group memebers, and may assist in grouping up.

I like the new escape server. One thing I would suggest. Prior to allowing a new person the option of transfering to a Live server, he should be given the number of people on the Live server that are in his normal grouping range. The escape server is going to give the illusion that all the Live servers have an significant number of low level players on it. A person flies through 10 levels and has no problem grouping up with other players. He transfers to a Live server and gets stalled because the server he is on, has limited people on it for him to complete his 10-20 armor quests. This brand new motivated player will quickly fall into a LFG cycle that is not fun to sit through.

Mentor experience and Mentor abilaties, might encourage people to drop down levels and help others. I picked a certain race and class because that is what I wanted to play, and progress with. Why would I want to continually become another different class and help lower level players out if I am delaying my main character's progression?

Woot for the loot all button. Thanks for adressing it.

I hope your Real Life dice are better than my EQ dice.

Tarzel

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 11, 2005 02:00 PM

The notes feature of the LFG tool lets you advertise exactly what sort of flags or progression you wish. Tasks become more of a problem considering there is a limit to the amount of time you can accomplish a task if you leave the zone.

I believe, and I will reconfirm this, that the Escape server will recommend a single server for new players to join so players who don't already know what server they are going to should find a nice set of new players on the recommended server.

The new Depths of Darkhollow expansion opens up all new possibilities to hunt with lower level players. Hopefully this helps as well.

If you have a particular clas syou like - such as heavy blasters - there will be blaster class types for the monster mobs. I'll have a full article about Depths of Darkhollow up later today.

Comment Posted by: Dewery on June 11, 2005 03:22 PM

I know a lot of you are thinking that focusing on newer players is a waisted effort, but if what Loral is saying is true then it surely looks as if SOE doesn't agree with you.

SOE's latest attempt to retake the lead in MMOs seems to be a complete flop. The numbers I've seen shows EQ to have over 100,000 more active subscriptions than EQ2. Meanwhile, WoW has about million accounts give or take a hundred thousand or so.

SOE's best bet is to refocus on EQ and try to capture more and more players there. The MMO market is becoming a force to be reckoned with, so unlike a lot of you, I think EQ can only become more popular. EQ needs to market its history as the revolutionizer in MMOs and work over the next 2-3 years to completely redo the older content on the game and bring it to new standards.

I think that one of the next few expansions should take the opportunity to be the expansion with new graphics. Imagine how many copies of that expansion would sell?

Add to that, every other month EQ should release a revamped zone. Not all of the zones should be higher level content, but I would think more of them should include higher level content. The revamped zones of similar levels can be new hubs for players to find pickup groups. Despite what many think, having zones that people crowd to is a *good* thing - you're sure to find a group there. So, with fewer low level and mid level zones, people won't be spread out. Lastly, all underutilized zones need to have a purpose - they should be loaded with quests, tasks and perhaps unique merchants that sell things you can't buy anywhere else. The quests and tasks must offer rewards and many of them should be soloable.

With these changes made - new players would be attracted to EQ, those new players would stick with EQ (by having condensed zones to group, it would be easier to find groups and level) and it would still have the epic feel EQ has by having many zones loaded with quests, tasks, merchants and hopefully great lore which keeps them well travelled by those who enjoy to do that and by those who feel they want to accomplish a task in about a half hour and be greatly rewarded for it.

Comment Posted by: Elfauna Eaglewing on June 11, 2005 05:40 PM

Have a great time Loral!

Mommo

Comment Posted by: Aethn on June 11, 2005 07:29 PM

Loral, level cap increase or not? Please tell us before you head out and get drunk. Oh and AA's? Could care less about content or mentoring fluff.

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 11, 2005 08:58 PM

No level cap increase but about another couple dozen AAs.

Comment Posted by: Ryan R on June 12, 2005 02:49 AM

Not that its at the forefront of everyones mind, but did anyone hear anything if they are EVER going to fix the old world boats? I don't mind the transloacters, but the boats should still be there too. I think it detracts from the roleplay element that the boats aren't used any more :(

Comment Posted by: valbarr on June 12, 2005 08:49 AM

okays lets look at this 8.5 man years in depth.

that means to redo all models would take 1 man, 8.5 years, or 3102 days.

if you have a team of 10 men, it would take them 310 days. if you have a team of 100 men, it would take them 31 days or about 2 months work.

now, lets say each of these people is paid 1000 dollars a week, 8000 dollars per person for the projext, this would make a total of 800,000 for the whole project in monetary costs. i believe even if you double or triple this figure just for the sake of it, that EQ makes more money for sony in 1 at definetly 2 months, to pay for this project..... thank you.

Comment Posted by: Lister on June 12, 2005 03:40 PM

Wow. Um...

Couple of points:

Employees actually cost the company about 180% of their salary; the rest goes to payroll taxes, insurance, benefits, their share of office space/power/equipment, etc.

100 licenses for Maya Complete (the cheapest professional-level modeling package, assuming they need no plugins or extras) would cost $200000 or so.

100 computers to run Maya Complete would cost at least that amount, and very probably more.

While EQ might gross $800000 a month (I don't know current subscriber figures, and the Station Pass makes it more difficult to guess), presumably the rest of the developers would also like to get paid while these 100 people redo all of the animations.

You can't build, texture, or animate models in a vacuum. You must build the base model before you can rig it or UV it. It must be rigged before it can be animated. It must be UV'd before it can be textured. Apparently it must have the armor geometry added before the additional armor animations can be worked on. 100 people could not simultaneously begin this project and have it done in two months.

Assuming it is possible to start from scratch with a more modern animation system (which may or may not be possible within their engine -- I don't know), you're still looking at 32 models (each at least a person-month to build, rig, UV, and texture) with 4 sets of armor geometry each, who knows how many unique armor textures, and then they have to animate.

It's do-able, but it would be comparable to hiring an entire game studio's worth of artists, then having them work for half a year on product that is already released. I want new models too, but I can't see how this looks like a good investment to anyone.

Comment Posted by: on June 12, 2005 09:07 PM

"I want new models too, but I can't see how this looks like a good investment to anyone.
"

Simple, if you don't draw in new blood then the game dies and your false savings evaporates as the income decreases.

To put it simply, in business if you are not growing you are failing. Stagnation or decrease in user numbers will cause less support from the bean counters at Sony until they pull the plug.

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 12, 2005 11:36 PM

"Simple, if you don't draw in new blood then the game dies and your false savings evaporates as the income decreases. "

You seem to be assuming that they won't draw in new blood without new models, but they'll draw in lots of blood with them. I think revamped old zones be a much bigger draw than new PC models. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd also rather see new monster models than PC models.

I think there are plenty of better things they could spend their money on.

Comment Posted by: on June 13, 2005 07:37 AM

they were going to outsource the work to a dedicated team, ie, all the setup costs would have already been met, and yes all my figures were guess work, but even if those figures were only 10 percent of the real costs, it would still be doable, even if they invested half a years profits into this, there supposed to be making this game last for at least 10 years into the future they have said, do you really think the current models can last that long ??

sony used to make about 4 million, a month, 10 dollars 400,000 subscribers. lets say they only have half that now, 200,000 subscribers at 15 dollars a month, that is still 3 million a month, half a years revenue is 18 million, lets say they pay there 10 gms, 100,000 a year, hahahahaha, thats only 1 million of the money on wages, lets say they pay 10 million in bandwidth costs etc, that still leaves 7 million profit, yes these figures are all pulled out of my arse, but who cares, sony is massive, put some of the god damn money back into the game, and as a last thing, yes i know i have one massive sentence and no paragraphs before some dimwit thinks there clever pointing this out.

Comment Posted by: Geldo on June 13, 2005 07:44 AM

As for the comments above about "drawing in new players"..what's the first thing most non-hardcore RPGers see in a game? yes the graphics...hence the increasing playerbase for some of the newer games with superior graphics to eq1.

There is also the vital point that Sony PROMISED new models and this will have not only drawn in new business but also some older players back to EQ generating revenue.

If sony no longer has any plans to update eq graphics they should make an announcement to this effect and offer to refund money to those who returned to EQ and anyone who started playing from the date they made the new model promises.

After all it's not very ethical to make false statements in order to create business for yourself is it?

And before anyone starts saying that Sony wants to make the models but just can't...They would have taken costs and time required into account BEFORE making any statements.

I'd also like to know that since Sony said the models were already out-sourced, does this mean that they have already paid a 3rd party the money for development or have they broken a major contract with someone? Either way that doesn't look good for Sony.....

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 13, 2005 08:48 AM

"Simple, if you don't draw in new blood then the game dies and your false savings evaporates as the income decreases."

There is little more than guessing to say that new player models = new players. Again, look at the number of people who don't like WoW or EQ2 models.

"There is also the vital point that Sony PROMISED new models and this will have not only drawn in new business but also some older players back to EQ generating revenue."

It was a statement made at the summit a year ago but it wasn't ever in an official press release from SOE. From what I understand, they had planned to outsource it that year but the cost that came back was too high for them to do it.

"I'd also like to know that since Sony said the models were already out-sourced, does this mean that they have already paid a 3rd party the money for development or have they broken a major contract with someone? Either way that doesn't look good for Sony"

I don't think there was ever a contract. I think outsourcing was the idea, it looked like it was going to work, but then when they figured out all of the costs the number was way higher than they expected or had budgeted.

All of these player model discussions give me an ice-cream headache. We all want new player models. The dev team wants new player models. They're rebuilding tons of stuff to keep EQ up to date and adding in lots of features not found in other existing MMORPGs. Yes, Sony could stop development on a new MP3 player and instead give the money to SOE to develop new EQ1 player models, but there is no business case to say that new models will bring in new people to make it worth the money; at least not right now.

It's my hope that either new technologies or better efficiency in the creation of these models comes about and they do reach a point where it becomes cost effective to release new player models. It's on their big list of things they want to do and its obviously on many players' lists of things they want.

I cringed when the SOE guys started talking about the number of man-years because I knew it would just add fuel to arm-chair micro-management of their resources. There are lots of factors and lots of variables in SOE's economics that we don't understand except one: we pay $15 a month to play EQ. If we don't like it, we can stop paying.

I want new player models as much as anyone. I happen to love the WoW and EQ2 models and I think they'd do a great job with some new ones. I am sure this feature will continue to get brought up every few months and we'll see how it progresses.

In the mean time, I'd sure rather turn our energy to problems we can actually get fixed or features we want that SOE can actually implement.

Comment Posted by: mac173173 on June 13, 2005 03:51 PM

I must be in a very small minority, cuz I do NOT like WoW graphics, and am pretty iffy on EQ2. I find WoW to be like a Loony Toons cartoon, and EQ2 is similar but with astronomical equipment requirements.

I LIKE the Luclin models, for the most part. I have played with them turned off when needed, and actually forgot what the new models looked like. I play for the content, not the graphics.

Sony has made clear with their actions that they will not pay to upgrade the graphics. Don't count on seeing it.

BTW, the free CD for tutoral is a GREAT idea.

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 13, 2005 06:09 PM

I'm with Mac. If I based my choice on PC models, I'd stil go with EQ's Luclin models over WoW's cartoons and EQ2's claymation.

For those who say new graphics are needed to bring in new players, maybe you're right, but don't forget, graphics means more than new PC models. The screenshots on the back of the box could show fancy zone art and NPC models.

I'd rather see new NPC models than PC models. With less animations and armor types per model, we'd get more models for less work, or for less cash. And, y'know, that's a good thing.

Comment Posted by: T on June 13, 2005 06:24 PM

From the Guild Summit report last year (June 8, 2004)...

http://mobhunter.com/000017.html

"Later I asked Smedley to confirm the rumor that we would have new PC models before the end of 2004 and he confirmed it. SOE is outsourcing the project to another company, an act that vexes SOE artists. It's their baby and they want to do the models but there simply isn't the time, a statement we heard often. The developers who spoke at the initial meeting stated that they want and expect Everquest to stand up graphically to other current massive online games including EQ2. The graphic update we battled through recently helps us get there."

Was hardly a rumour when the president supposedly confirmed it... So if they actually *did* outsource it and get some work done on it, are they just giving up and throwing that money and work away?

That 8.5 man-years may be a decent estimate, or it could be way off, there's no way to know for sure... maybe they could just open up the work to the community. Dont get into the legal mumbo jumbo, just make people sign disclaimers on their submissions or something, there has to be a way to make it work. /shrug. 8.5 years spread out among a few hundred fans eager to help wouldnt take very long at all.

Comment Posted by: xsi on June 13, 2005 07:33 PM

The only consistent detail in my entire EQ career is... my character. Thus, it matters how that character looks. More importantly, unless you're soloing, the members of your group are constantly in view. It doesn't do much for me to have the mobs I'm fighting look cooler than we do.

One of the many paths for advancement in EQ is through items... and part of gaining new items used to be gaining distinct and impressive armour and weapons. Since Luclin, all armour has looked the same, (and much of it bad), with only weapons offering some distinction.

No variety, crappy animations, poorly proportioned models, horrendous performance... and the average newbie would have at least a few of these on-screen at a time, looking like stick figures in contrast to the brand spanking new mob models.... yeah, that will definitely keep new players.

Comment Posted by: on June 13, 2005 07:41 PM

I can understand the cost and resources required to make new models..

However, they do it every expansion with new npcs.

Even if they did 1 race set every 6 months or so, it would be better than the stalemate we are at currently.

At this point, I just want HORSES/DROGMARS to work with OLD MODELS.

I dont care about new models or luclin models.

They should be easy to make just the buff portion of mounts without requiring a physical model or any other geometry changes.

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 14, 2005 06:33 AM

"So if they actually *did* outsource it and get some work done on it, are they just giving up and throwing that money and work away?"

My understanding is that the deal fell through when the outsourced group estimated a lot more money to do it than SOE expected. I don't know that any money was thrown away, I don't think it ever got started.

"I can understand the cost and resources required to make new models..

However, they do it every expansion with new npcs."

According to one of the programmers who figured out the math, they can do about 280 NPC models for the amount of work to redo the PC models.

Again we circle around to the same conclusion: SOE wants to do them but they're not cost effective a the current time and there's nothing to say it will actually help add or retain new players. I have talked to a lot of people who simply don't care.

Personally I'd love new models and I am sure this will come up very often so the minute SOE decides to redo them, we will hear about it, but in the mean time, why not talk about the fifty other things that came up during the summit and fan faire?

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 14, 2005 11:15 AM

Ok, time for a new topic:

So if SOE is going to rebuild the Plane of Knowledge, what sorts of things do you feel a new Plane of Knowledge should have? Here are some loose thoughts:

- Decrease lag

- Continue to have central places for things like mass buff.

- Have a clear area where groups can gather (what sorts of things have to be there to get groups togather?

- Improve the separations of the neighborhoods - The dark side should look like Neriak / Ogook, the good side should look like G Fay and Butcherblock, the neutral side should look like Qeynos and Freeport.

- Add in an adventurers guild with solo and group missions.

- Add things like an arena and a stage for performances and maybe some mini-games.

- Include all the things a good city should have: tradeskill places, easy banks, vendors with common adventuring items like gate and invis potions.

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 14, 2005 01:08 PM

I think that not only should the good and evil sides be more divided, but it would be neat to have little sub-sections for each race. A miniature swamp for the frogloks, some caves for the ogres, a huge tree with houses built in its branches for wood elves, etc.

I'd very much like to see more solo and group tasks. I'd like to see extensions of the new 10-20 quests on Test, with another set of armor for 20-30 characters, another set for 30-40, and so on.

Mini-games made me think of a casino. They could do this in either PoK or the existing Shadow Haven casino, but I'd like to see more casino games. Maybe if you're with a group you could play poker, or play it with NPCs if you're alone. Or how about a gnomish slots machine? I know slots doesn't fit the medieval theme to well, but look at some of the other things gnomes have tinkered. If nothing else, they'd be a fun way for people to pass the time while LFG.

Bring back the in-game message boards. I remember when I started, the Lion's Mane Inn and Tavern in South Qeynos had a message board in one room where players could write notes and leave them for other players to read. People would use them to schedule groups or advertise items for sale. These would be cool in PoK. People could use them for things like advertising an open raid or other event. I don't know why these were taken out, but I think it would be neat to have them in PoK if possible.

Hm, that's all I can think of for now.

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 14, 2005 01:59 PM

I like the idea of the casino and the bulletin board. I LOVE the idea of making it look more like their homeland. I joked with Rashere and Prathun that the strip bar in Neriak should franchise out to Knowledge - after all, thats where the real tuck money is. Likewise, I think Felwithe should set up a church to convert the lost souls over to Tunare.

I'd love to discuss this further, get some ideas down, and write it up in a recommendation to SOE so keep up the thoughts so we can get it in before they begin work on it.

If you were setting up a place for people to meet to group, what features should it have to help bring them by? Here were a couple of my ideas:

- Add in a Wayfarer teleporter who can send people to both the wayfarer camps and to the Dragon camps (and whatever place DoD adds).

- Add in the guy who give you the spirit shroud.

- Put the mission quest givers here so people go there to get quests and missions.

- Add a bathtub for augments.

- Add a vendor or two with common goods like invis potions, portal fragments and other useful things.

- Add an NPC that gives you a 30 minute +mana regen +hp regen buff for some plat that stacks with clarity and virtues and other buffs.

Comment Posted by: Loral on June 14, 2005 02:06 PM

By the way, my good friend from the Fan Faire, Jareth, posted mp3s of the discussions. You can hear the discussions as they happened. Excellent and priceless stuff. I will probably mirror them for archival purposes but here they are:

http://www.replicators.net/Summit1.MP3

http://www.replicators.net/Summit2.MP3

http://www.replicators.net/Summit3.MP3

http://www.replicators.net/Summit4.MP3

He also had some excellent notes at:

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=bardbalance&message.id=4374

Comment Posted by: on June 14, 2005 03:14 PM

Redoing POK is the same waste of time that redoing the bazaar was.

They are both misguided efforts to 'reduce lag' which is mostly in part due to exessive numbers of EXTREMELY POORLY designed luclin models.

gg circular arguements.

Player avatar design is *THE MOST IMPORTANT PART* of games such as eq. It is the ONE THING that *EVERYONE* has to look at, all the time... if not yourself, your group/guildmates/other players.

Player avatars last much longer than ANY other content, and thus should be the *HIGHEST POSSIBLE* priority.

New player stuff like the new tutorial and 'escape to norrath' server are great... however they have a lot of convincing to do to new players to make it over the hump of the extremely laggy and ugly player avatars.

Comment Posted by: on June 15, 2005 12:19 AM

You know where I would like to see some money spent? I would like to see some of my money spent improving the EQ code base. A project like this has got to be pretty messy after 6 years. Maybe if they went back and worked on improving their code (making it easier to work with/whatever) We would see more cool things coming out. My guess as to why the boats still don't work is that SOE doesn't have anyone left that understands how they work. I've seen what can happen to a software project when a bigger and better replacement is announced.

Comment Posted by: Rundle Allnighter on June 15, 2005 06:47 PM

I've had an idea for a while that might help make getting groups a bit easier.

While I know that travel in Norrath is much, much easier than it used to be in years past, for me (and others that I've talked to), getting to your group is often the deterrent. Getting to groups is often hindered by having to travel through a number of zones to some far off camp usually with the potential for death while in transit being quite high.

Since I'm a big fan of "nothing for free" I propose the following as an idea to help counter the above issue:

Have a quest that provides the player with the ability to be instantly transported to the group leaders location. This assumes the ability to add people to your group across zones has been implemented. Some restrictions would be that it can only be used once every 24 hours, a "group" must have at least 3 players already, and the ability cannot be used when you are a part of a raid.

I would use the AA screen for this since all the mechanics are already available in that tool. I would also make sure that it is available to any level in the game so the quest would have to scale accordingly depending on the level of the toon attempting to get the ability.

To prevent further exploits esp. by guilds doing raids, there maybe certain zones that block this ability. I can see how a guild could send 3 people the gathering point of their raid then basically add in 3, let them port over, drop them now giving two groups of 3, and repeating till all 72 people are there all before forming the raid. I might have to spend a bit more time thinking on this.

Hey, it's not perfect but it's an idea. :)

Comment Posted by: Archimedus Ragnarok on June 15, 2005 10:31 PM

I would like to see the idea of "Cultural Areas" expanded on. The problem I see would be making PoK TOO big, so here is my solution: Make PoK 3 Zones. One zone is the "dark" zone with the dark races cultural areas (ie. swamp and huts for trolls, Cave town for Dark elves) surrounding a central "plaza" with a main "bank" and some utility areas. The central zone is a "Neutral" Zone with the main PoK Library EXACTLY as it is now, surrounded by the "neutral" races cultural areas, all the PoK Portals, an arena, a Tradeskill Plaza, the zones to the Guild Lobby and the Bazzar, class guild trainers, and a Wayfarers camp. Leaving the Library as it is would be to accomadate the Lore that the city of New Tannan is growing around the library. The 3rd zone would be the "light" area with their cultural areas and bank etc.
While all of the areas will permit any race to enter, there could be inter-PoK type quests that involve things like maybe spying on the "other" side or preforming tasks to show how evil/good you really are. Completing one task/quest would allow access to additional ones.
This system could be tied into the new Newbie Experience really well, and could even be done in a few different ways. You could pop right in your cultural district, and begin your life in Everquest. There will be quest-givers in the different cultural areas and just about everything a noob could use. Or, a newb could appear in the "neutral" area and chose to pledge themselves to a specific cultural area. This could be really neat. Dark Elves could choose to follow Gnomish society by completing quests given in the Gnomish Cultural area. There could even be quests to give faction in the Old World Starting cities, so that any player at any level could complete these quests in order to gain acceptance in a city they normally couldn't. These quests could even lower factions in the players "original" starting city. For instance, my Human Magician wants to study in Cabilis. He could speak with an emmisary from Cabilis in the Iksar Cultural District about preforming tasks and quests that would allow him entry into the Iksar's cultural homeland.

I think redoing PoK in this fashion could REALLY add to the Lore/Roleplaying of the game. The new expansion (DoD) looks to be a boon to roleplayers as well. I hope that all of the new changes comming about will help revive Roleplaying in Everquest...after all, it is a massively multiplayer online ROLEPLAYING game :D

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 16, 2005 01:38 AM

I don't think they'd need to add more zones, unless they were making each region as big as a normal city. There are some pretty huge zones in the game. Look at West Karana, for example. No way revamped PoK could be that big.

And there wouldn't be quests to "spy on the other side." PoK, New Tanaan (where's Old Tanaan?) is one city, and all the people are on the same side. The good, evil and neutral divisions are just recognizing the differences that exist on Norrath, I think. I do like the idea of emissaries (spelling?) from the home towns, though.

Comment Posted by: Archimedus Ragnarok on June 16, 2005 02:17 AM

Can't think of any specific examples, but if you talk to some of the Evil NPCs in the current PoK, they talk about how they would take over PoK if it werent for maintaining the balance. And the spy missions dont necessarilly have to be interpok missions, but could be say, a Troll asking you to carry out a mission against Gukta. As far as zone size goes, remeber though that West Karana dosen't have NEAR as many different buildings, NPCS, or PCs in it. To do say 30 different cultural areas, the zone would not only be huge area wide, but also would have TONS of buildings. Now, maybe you don't do 30 cultural areas, but even say 20 would be a lot.
Mind you now, I am imagining something pretty big...maybe it could be done smaller and in one zone, but I think 3 zones would be kinda cool.
Anyhow just some thoughts.

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 16, 2005 02:57 AM

3 zones wouldn't be as cool if you were always traveling between them.

Hm, I missed the dark guys talking about taking over the light side.

Trolls sending you to Gukta would be cool. The residents of PoK don't seem overly interested in such things, but a troll from Neriak might very well take a trip to Tanaan to recruit some adventurers.

And I still don't know what Old Tanaan is.

Comment Posted by: on June 16, 2005 12:33 PM

I beleive I read/heard/imagined somewhere that POK was built upon the ruins of old taanan. So you won't find much obvious evidence of it.

Comment Posted by: Nolrog on June 16, 2005 03:48 PM

For rebuilding the PoK, here's my idea. Make the stones look more like something of the place it takes you to. The Felwith stone look like a minature castle. The Kelething stone, a tree with a building and ramps around it, the neriak stone maybe a flourescent skull like in Neriak, etc. You should be able to tell where the stone takes you to just by looking at it. Gukta should be moved to the other side (perhaps with the old grobb one broken and no longer working.) Make room for new stones if they are to be added, so you don't have to squeeze a stone in like happened whey they added the stone to Stonebrunt (which should look like the Gunthak lighthouse.)

The evil side should look more evil, and not just dark. Add some color to it. Maybe make the sections around each stone look like the cities they take you to (someone else suggested that above, and I like it a lot.)

Hmm. What else. Finish the dang tradeskill changes finally. Get them in so we can start complaining about them (er, I mean so we can start looking at them and providing feedback.)

I love the idea of revamping an old zone each time there is an expansion. Once we hit the 200th expansion or so, all the old zones will have been done. ;-)

Comment Posted by: xsi on June 16, 2005 05:33 PM

The spell merchants in revamped PoK should offer all non-researched/non-quested/non-mob dropped spells from 1-50, and do so in a convenient manner that doesn't involve the newbie having to find their spell for sale on a different class' spell merchant.

It's a pain in the ass for people new to the game to try and figure out what spells they were supposed to get and where they were supposed to get them.

Players should not have to rely on Allakhazam or EQCR for basic class proficiencies.

Comment Posted by: Archimedus Ragnarok on June 17, 2005 12:42 AM

Haha, I have been playing EQ for over 5 years, and STILL have trouble finding spells in PoK :D

Comment Posted by: xsi on June 17, 2005 02:29 AM

Same... since beta 4 (not that it matters, since PoK has existed far less time than either of us have been playing EQ), and I still end up having to use spoiler sites just to find what spells I'm supposed to get for a level, and where the heck they are. I cannot imagine how someone fresh to EQ would manage.

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on June 17, 2005 01:29 PM

I like the idea of making each portal look different. I like the portals in Velious for that reason. The portal to the Plane of Mischief looks like a miniature version of Bristelbane's castle, and the Plane of Growth portal is a tree.

My sister says she'd like more tradeskill containers. For example, with only two brew barrels, you encounter a problem if three people want to brew.

Comment Posted by: Archimedus Ragnarok on June 18, 2005 03:09 AM

More Tradeskill containers would be nice...and yes, I can imagine how daunting it is for a newb to find spells...like you said, we are "old timers" and still have trouble. I am amazed that there are people out there who could right off the top of their head, tell you where to find just about any spell...I can't even keep track of spells for 2 classes...and now, with the reinvisioning of classes and the changes to spell lvls, all of the printed material I have (I print out spell lists for every class I play, and have them stored for quick reference when I don't have my laptop near by) is inaccurate, and the last time I checked, the only site that had up to date info on spell lvls was Lucy (Haven't checked in about 2 months though)

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