Prophecy of Ro Single Group Progression Video
by Loral on August 24, 2006
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Comment Posted by: UnomeTP on August 25, 2006 03:11 AM
I Understand Completly
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Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on August 25, 2006 04:08 AM
That wouldn't be so funny, if it weren't 100% on the mark.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, one has to ponder what 60 frames a second for 5 minutes is worth.
Sad thing is, the only thing the Dev's are going to see out of that is humor. The fundamental flaw in the game design will and has persistantly over the years flown right over thier heads.
Speaking of progression. What's the news on your plans Loral, are you going to bite the bullet and leave the world of the "casual" player behind to become a raider, or no?
Comment Posted by: xsi on August 25, 2006 04:11 AM
Haha, that may have been the most bitter EQ video I have ever seen.
I don't know... beta testing PoR was enough to convince me not to buy it.
My concern with EQ is that, even if SOE decides to actually put single group progression into the game, they're going to likely be tuning it in response to the raiders who actually test it in beta.
Good video though.
Comment Posted by: Loral on August 25, 2006 07:33 AM
My plans right now are on hold. I love my guild and I can't see leaving them. For the next month I will hardly be around at all. I'm getting married in nine days and then going to Yosemite for two weeks afterwards. When I return, The Serpent's Spine will be out and that will have everything shaken up for a bit.
Hopefully TSS includes enough single-group progressive content to keep me busy for a while. I have a whole stack of other hobbies upon which I will spend a great deal of time so even getting to 75 and getting the AAs will be a good opportunity for me.
Beyond that, we'll have to see what happens.
Comment Posted by: Ausable on August 25, 2006 08:37 AM
Its rather sad to see a *cleric* having trouble finding a group.
BTW,while my ranger is long retired from EQ,I still enjoy reading your well written and thoughtful essays on Everquest.
Comment Posted by: Winyder on August 25, 2006 09:41 AM
I completely understand and agree with you...but grouping woes via the LFG tool on our server are not just limited to PoR.
While I wouldn't try single grouping within ToB ( 10 minutes to kill a mob doesn't seem like balanced single group RvR ), my experiences have been that in order to get groups together for the other zones, one must take the initiative and put the group together himself. That's the way I got ToB flagged, and got most of the pieces for my Skins quest spell.
As always, you're a welcome addition to any group of mine, my friend.
- W
Comment Posted by: alba on August 25, 2006 10:04 AM
mobhunter has offically jumped the shark.
The jealousy has been palateable ever since his wife join a raiding guild. Instead of sitting around lfg and staying with your go-nowhere guild, perhaps, maybe, move on to another guild that will 1) improve your character as you so wish and 2) let you get regular groups.
It doesn't mean you can't talk to your former guildmates, but honestly, why hold yourself back and then rail against perceived injustices?
Comment Posted by: Juror on August 25, 2006 10:18 AM
What makes video even more funny is that Loral decided to make it after seeing video of Township Rebellion raiding Demiplane and Deathknell. Quite a difference between the two, huh.
Ironically Loral got a group while he had LFG up for the video so it's not entirely impossible for "casual" player to find a group.
From what I have seen, clerics usually can find a group but not always for the zone that they want. If you want particular missions, you have to wait a while or take initiative and pester all your friends to help you out. Persistence and luck seem more important than class in finding a group.
Some times are better than others. If it's a popular raid time than it's a lot more difficult to get enough people. Early or late is very hit or miss.
All but one of the zones where Loral was filming were empty. Kinda sad to see them unused and definitely something that I hope we don't see repeated in TSS.
Comment Posted by: wiggles on August 25, 2006 10:35 AM
Plenty of zones are empty. I can run through 10 connected zones and not see a single person. Apparently, people are all in instances (because EQ subscriptions are still at 450k and not 250k right?)
Sitting lfg in random zone A doesn't work (my server uses channels for each expansion at least it solves running there). It hasn't since Velious and PoP zones. You either need to take the initiative and make a group or join a guild that has enough people your level online during your playtime. A guild that has 10-15 people online with levels from 30-70 does no good. A guild that has 40-50 level 70s does.
Since OoW/DoN/DoD/PoR, there is so much single group stuff it is staggering and if you didn't do it when it was released you will have hard time trying to get random people to help you on a specific goal. Again, a larger, more focused guild (doesn't have to be a "uber" one) can help with this.
Being unguilded or in a guild that doesn't fit your playstyle is self-defeating these days and TSS will make it more so.
Comment Posted by: bleh on August 25, 2006 01:01 PM
good video.
however the same thing happens to raiders when they aren't raiding.
Comment Posted by: Skuz on August 25, 2006 02:01 PM
EQ needs a solo game of some form, people need personal goals & sometimes there are just not enough people wanting to do the same thing you want to do.
Comment Posted by: Naladini on August 25, 2006 02:19 PM
"I'm getting married in nine days and then going to Yosemite for two weeks afterwards."
Congratulations Loral! Enjoy the honeymoon.
Is it safe to assume she's a gamer?
Comment Posted by: xsi on August 25, 2006 02:52 PM
"Is it safe to assume she's a gamer?"
Pretty safe, since she posted as Juror just a few posts above yours, and has been, at least in part, subject matter for the last few mobhunter threads.
Comment Posted by: Loral on August 25, 2006 03:10 PM
"All but one of the zones where Loral was filming were empty. Kinda sad to see them unused and definitely something that I hope we don't see repeated in TSS."
This is actually the thing I'm trying to show in the video. The LFG is one problem (and I do go LFG for a while but I'm picky about where I go) but having six empty zones from the most recent expansion is a bigger problem. There are very few pickup groups to be had in any of the POR zones and the zones are brand new. This could have been solved with some general tweaking to the zones - things I have described in other articles, but SOE had other priorities and so the zones remain empty.
Yes, my future wife is a gamer and previous leader of my guild. She finally saw that she would probably quit if she didn't change how she plays and now she has quite a bit of fun. Sure, some of my attitudes recently are jealousy but I think a lot of my attitudes still aren't wrong.
For example, Juror has raided quite a few high-end raids over the past seven days or so with a fair bit of success and a couple of new items. When she and I grouped together with three members of her guild, myself, and two other high-end hunters, we lost on one of the Skylance missions because it was too hard to do it right and we didn't use the DA rush exploit to finish the mission.
The single group game can be, in some cases, harder than the raiding game at the level of individual commitment of energy. Yet the reward is significantly smaller.
SOE should add better experience gain and equipment rewards in Relic, Devastation, Elddar, and Svarag.
SOE should reduce the difficulty of the Skylance missions, the Devastation mission, and remove the requirement for Saga Skins - a tedius quest if ever there was.
SOE should reduce the difficulty of TOB mobs so that those who hunt there will actually see benefit from the gear that drops.
SOE should increase the respawn time so TOB could support more groups hunting at once.
SOE should implement a system to bring unflagged members into TOB and give them opportunities for back-flagging.
Any of these steps would improve Prophecy of Ro.
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on August 25, 2006 07:02 PM
"There are very few pickup groups to be had in any of the POR zones and the zones are brand new. This could have been solved with some general tweaking to the zones - things I have described in other articles, but SOE had other priorities and so the zones remain empty."
While I am not saying the zones could not be better(they could be, though I think it would take more than minor tweakings to make them good), at least a part of the problem with LFG and PoR is that SoE desided to not add AA's with PoR. Even casual, part time players are hitting the point where there are not that many usefull AA's to buy, and this is incredibly demotivating. It's not that people just don't go to PoR, it's that people are not LFGing as much. In my guild, after raids, there is a mass exodus to low level alts, as people do not feel a whole lot of desire to grind out that next point of innate stats or whatever...and we are not even nearly one of the highest end guilds.
When you combine this with better RvR in other expansions, truly crappy zone designs in PoR(hint for SoE, pretty zones are not enough), incredibly annoying mobs to fight(not hard, just annoying), some bad bugs and design descisions(pathing, expecially in Svarg, the door to Svarg), and a desire by a large segment of the population to use instinced content, and PoR just does not have much of a chance.
It's funny, but based on pre-expansion information available, I predicted DoD to be horrible, and it was an awesome expansion. I predicted PoR to be fun, and a decent expansion, and it turned out to be one of the worst expansions ever released, if not the worst. Hopefully the great unease I feel about TSS based on what is known so far is a good sign.
Comment Posted by: Quesci on August 25, 2006 08:01 PM
I don't know why the lack of pickup groups in most PoR zones is surprising. The same thing happened with the past few expansions. There are always zones that are popular within each expansion and zones that are not. In PoR, Arcstone was the popular zone -- thanks to a few well done quests.
Pickup groups are nonexistant in Depths of Darkhollow. Dragons of Norrath had pickup groups for one or two instanced missions. Omens of War was the last expansion with a significant number of zones where pickup groups could be found.
How much of this is due to numbers?
Comment Posted by: Taralan Xegony on August 26, 2006 05:45 AM
Sad thing is I could have made a similar video for PoP, as a social guild paladin the 4 hour lfg was common even in zones with high populations. I moved onto a raiding guild, and havent regretted it, ( tho possibly due to Genesis dying when Wow/EQ2 et all emerged ).
But the main line is play the game and have fun, if its not fun change things. Raiding isnt the answer, but it is AN answer.
Anyway enjoy married life and no marital arguments over raiding/none raiding!
Comment Posted by: concerned1 on August 26, 2006 10:57 AM
loral, i agree with some of these folks. that video isnt so much saying there isnt stuff to do in eq but it reflects the ever declineing eq population. eveidently the people that could fight in those zones did and have no further use for them. im betting before the year is up you will see that get worse. when you guys new expansion comes out and the new race gimmick to buy the expansion is tired (like play as a monster,robo hog, armored horse, ripp off wow warlock horse , etc...) the truth will emerge....uber raid gear with like over 600 plus hps and crazy stats. super ultimate uber dps weapons.casual players and new players will have the same old ripped off feeling. and then the 1-2 punch knockout combo will be here before you know it: wows' new expansion and vanguard. they wont kill eq mind you but they sure will take some more subscribers away. more and more people will quit. just imagine eq with primarily high end raiders on....now one but each other to show the wonderous new gear to. but wait...they will all have basically the same gear. what will be the use?
Comment Posted by: Aazzn on August 26, 2006 11:39 AM
I don't think the skylance missions are too hard, when i've done them with groups of sub 70 alts mixed in before, its more about knowing what your doing and taking the right classes. Also the reason I think that pickup groups have declined is that it seems at least on my server that the general population knows less and less about their class's group roles or are at least unable to accomplish them. Also PoR is difficult, its the same old debate from 6 or 7 years ago that people who leveled up using LoIO, OT, DL, KC were often unable to perform vital class functions like splitting mobs out of camp, or controlling pulls of several in camp, via offtanking, tanking multiples, healing more than one person efficiently or mez/charm. Rather many classes simply do dps, or now with the case of monster missions that so many people used/abused to level up on they have even less idea about how their class interacts. It really only takes one bad experience with a person to cause word to get around amongst guildmates that a person is very sub par to poor. The best way to improve that sort of reputation and learn stuff about a class is to join a guild. Simply put, EQ is a game for people who want to join a guild and do things with other people. Its much less a random chat room with random action that many other games resemble.
Comment Posted by: detanobrac on August 27, 2006 08:11 AM
I haven't played in quiet some time, but I read this blog religiously and all I can say is. LOL. ;-)
Barbados
barbados@gmail.com
http://www.deru.com
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on August 27, 2006 05:06 PM
BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA...
Ohhhh.. welcome to my world.
Comment Posted by: Stuurm on August 27, 2006 07:59 PM
Just wanted to say congrats on getting married!
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on August 27, 2006 08:46 PM
Wondering how the new AA revamp is going to affect everything? No longer will one need to level to 70 to get AAs at their highest level. According to devs, all levels that earned AAs will now earn them at the rate of a 70 leveled toon. Not only that, but they're talking about incorporating the ability to earn AAs before 50. If I'm right, it means that people will actually earn massive AAs early on if they want, sometimes in much easier content. At 50, a lot more people can solo effectively and groups are not nearly as unforgiving from what I understand as trying to earn at 70. Surprised no one has even mentioned this.
The other thing is the out-of-combat thing they're doing. 30 seconds after you're out of combat and without hate, it will take 3 minutes to fully recharge mana, hp, and endurance. That scales, so it will be 3 minutes at ALL levels with ALL gear.
Is it me, or are these two things a solo'ers dream come true? The combination for some classes will allow massive AA buildup before level 60, since solo'ing can be extremely profitable for some classes below 60.
The AA thing is pegged at 70 because of the fear that at 75 AAs would come ridiculously quickly. I suspect that while 75 is the cap here, we're going to see a cap of 80 within a year. I think they're making the early game extremely easy, they've created all these expansions and zones that casuals can't do yet, and their solution will be to empower casuals to open up content, so that DoDH and PoR will actually get some use. And my suspicion on the 80 cap is simply this: With planning the AAs around 70 with the fear that 75 would be too quick on AAs, there was a mention of "and above" somewhere by a dev, meaning that they're already looking at future content. Also, what better way to quell complaints of not enough content for casuals than to make them more powerful. Also, they debated the cap at 75 OR 80 for this expansion -- so they're already thinking in that direction. If they at least considered it this expansion, I don't think it's too far off.
One last thing, the first set of ads out advertise that after reaching 60 (reference to Wow cap right now) you're ready to join the Big Leagues. Obviously in their mind they want to associate EQ with being bigger, stronger, more complex, and higher leveled. What better way to do this than to continue to grow the level cap, at least I think that's their thought pattern right now.
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on August 27, 2006 08:49 PM
Oh, and pretty sure I said this before on another thread but: Congratulations on the marriage! Get away from EQ and have some fun for awhile that doesn't involve a keyboard and mouse. We'll try not to destroy the game before you get back:)
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Pip on August 28, 2006 03:00 AM
The problem with the game is that soe keeps extending and extending instead of going back and revitalizing past content to serve current needs.
Sure new stuff can be fun but at the rate its going over half the game today serves no real purpose anymore. Starting towns are stuck in time and are thus little more than a bind point. Glorious dragons and dieties of old are now contemptable jokes to be killed for twink bragging rights. The items hoards of the gods can be outshone via dodh missions to an extent.
Youd think that with all the money they have raked in over the years that they could devote some of that income to maintaining a live dev team to keep current content vital and interesting. With each level boost to sell boxes more and more of the game becomes a joke and pointless.
The game is completely loot driven and its delivered via a 40 hp(general example) upgrade each expansion.
Comment Posted by: abell on August 28, 2006 01:23 PM
I wanted to point out that saga skins is NOT necessary for either receiving your 70 spell/disc (you can do the "bring me 4" quests from sverag to get this, and its MUCH easier and faster) or for getting your TOB key (my cleric does not have skins finished but does have TOB-- you need NRO 1-3, Skylance 1-3 and Samples of Corruption only). (You do need one person with skins + preparing skins + beoming the vessel to get samples of corruption. These are also needed later for Deathknell access if you are a raider)
I wish they would remove those requirements from getting "samples of corruption" though, its enough work as is and the samples task is hard enough to find a solid group for without having to have one slot be someone who is probably already flagged.
Comment Posted by: Bacchuss on August 28, 2006 01:50 PM
Just wanted to say congrats to a couple of fellow server friends!
Bacchuss of Radiant
Comment Posted by: Mendo on August 28, 2006 02:27 PM
Loral,
I am a long time reader first time poster here. I have typically agreed with your sentiments in the past, but your take on the PoR expansion couldnt be more wrong.
When DoDH was out, did you afk in undershore hoping a good group would pick you up? Playing a cleric I suppose that would be a possibility, but thats not what other classes can rely on, nor should it be an expected means of progression. All of your points about the raid gap are valid, but I think your idea of single group content is skewed. There should be no PUG content that keeps casuals up to date with hardcore players. Note the distinct separation I am making...I am not talking about raiders and non, but casual and hardcore.
Group content should be easier to get a foot in only because of the non-reliance on 40 other people. It shouldnt be a pickup and go type of thing, at least not the content that you want to balance gear out. PoR has tons of content for single groups that is very fun, including Sverag names, Skylance arc, Razorthorn heroes challenge, relic mini names, and many other zones for lesser geared groups like arcstone.
Your problem wasn't the expansion itself, its how you are playing the game. If you dont have a group of friends to at least make a semi-reliable 6 man force, do you really put enough effort into the game to deserve the kind of gear you think single groupers are entitled? I say no, but I say it while feeling like Im mostly on your side. I think there is a place for the LFG channel, but thats not where any kind of gap bridging gear content should be. Rewarding single group content should be reserved for well oiled groups that play together often, which PoR caters to fairly well.
Comment Posted by: Mitic on August 28, 2006 02:28 PM
well progression servers are doin fine. groups within minutes in every lvlrange. soe should start to dev. a luclin caped server.
they went the wrong direction starting with pop.
Comment Posted by: Loral on August 28, 2006 04:14 PM
"PoR has tons of content for single groups that is very fun, including Sverag names, Skylance arc, Razorthorn heroes challenge, relic mini names"
Almost every time I go there, these zones are empty.
Pickup groups are a very important part of the game. Not everyone can rely on a tight knit group of friends with the right classes, right levels, right equipment power, and right time frames to meet these challenges. WOW solves this with solo content but at the expense of good group dynamics. EQ can do better.
Comment Posted by: Mendo on August 28, 2006 07:15 PM
Pickup groups can be an important part of the game, but shouldnt be thought of as equal to hardcore players in terms of where their power should be.
The barrier to raiding is pretty severe for most players, even some who play a lot. Raiding requires a guild, and requires one to be able to adhere to a schedule set for a large group of players. It is much more difficult for some players to mesh their schedule with 40 players than it is to find 5 players that have similar playtime.
I have no problem with fun, easy, content being added to the game. Make it rewarding to the pickup players, and make it interesting. That should not be where the gear gap gets lessened though. Single group content has the potential to be difficult enough to merrit high end items, but it should be nearly the same commitment one makes to raiding, minus of course the barrier of numbers.
The topic of rot loot being better than single group loot is quasi legit at best. Is it a shame that loot is rotting, or being looted by unskilled players? Sure. But what does that do to affect your playing? Gear should always be secondary to the feeling of accomplishment you get from beating content with players that you trust to play well. If the end goal is the gear, you will never be happy because there is no way to have a completely foolproof method of distributing gear based on skill.
What the game needs is coherrant single group progression with gear that lets you progress to the next tier of single group content. Average pickup groups should find this kind of content almost impossible for the most part. The same as a group of 40 players randomly assembled would find even a fairly simple scripted encounter impossible. The barrier should be skill and unity, not just numbers. It is illogical to think pickup group content should yield rewards that lessen the gap between them and high end players.
Comment Posted by: AnonBardstard on August 28, 2006 09:51 PM
A cleric having trouble getting groups!?!?!?
Eh?
What on earth can you do in group that would stop groups? The MAIN group former is usually a cleric as pretty well anything else can be worked around if you've got a good healer. How many groups form with the question 'got a cleric?' THEN 'got a tank?' 'it's ok, the Ranger/zerker/monk/bard/necro will be tanking'
I'm kinda freaked out that a cleric ever has to go lfg, as in guild a cleric will go 'cleric lfg, grab me now or I'm off public lfg'. That cleric will be busy the rest of the night.
Devastation did surprise me though. I honestly thought it was going to be WoS MkII. Guess the absolute requirement to have a good puller kinda knocked that out. Going lfg in Devestation/ToB is a bit wierd, people will think your prepping for a raid.
Glad it was said that you DID get a group later as I find it wierd that such a core class can ever even have the CHANCE to go lfg and not get tells before last group broke up to come join someone else.
Maybe it's a server thing, there's always people lfg/groups forming in Arcstone/Relic on my server. And as for the amount of yells in /general for 1 or 2 people for a Dain mission, suffice to say, it's more common than people trying to sell toons/pp, and that happens alot.
/wanders off shaking head.
Comment Posted by: Stoneysilence on August 29, 2006 01:43 PM
This is what you get when a game focus' on one type of player for so long. All the others leave. So when they finally do create some content for other playstyles nobody is there to play them because they had been left in the cold for so long they all went on to other games.
Comment Posted by: foofookiller on August 29, 2006 05:14 PM
i am agree with loral but in some key points he is mistaken i find groups in many places i may not be as high in lvl but i try to group with 55 plus because it is good exp. now the PoR expansion i see very few things lower lvl people can do but they focuse more on high lvl charcters. for instance i have a friend lvl 28 mage cant really find places with out getting killed by something uber higher than him. i am a lvl 51 shaman i cant really find groups as much but i do find them. i ask around POK and find plenty of people mabey you should be less picky and more open to new things. i am not saying og on raids i mean just look else where for groups.
Comment Posted by: kurtieran on August 30, 2006 06:37 PM
Loral,
Thank You!!! After being unable to explain to some friends why logging in just gives me a headache You have managed to say it without words!!! I also read some nasta spam from some raid happy peeps on the boards.. I on the otherhand agree for you .. If SOE wants to creat more raid content "go ahead" but dont make it impossible for those of us who do not like or can not handle the rigors of raiding guilds. Hearing them carry on about POR and how it was made for single groupers.. I ask SOE Why cant my 70 bsty solo there? OH wait.. I need better equip... Ok well err umm ok where do I get that .. Well you raid .. sigh.. Ok heard it still think its BS I hate to see my eq love die .. but off to eq2 ...
Thanks Again L
Comment Posted by: Krylax on August 31, 2006 09:58 AM
Loral. Your little video explains exactly why I left EQ for WoW. As a married, father of two who owns his own home I just don't have the oceans of free time required to progress in EQ. I could build an addition to my house and remodel the kitchen in less time than it takes to get flagged for Anguish
Comment Posted by: Hirebrand on September 2, 2006 01:02 AM
The rarest class is the Group Leader.
Comment Posted by: TomDaGreat on September 2, 2006 08:01 AM
EQ has a solo game for everyone, its called GEMS!
Comment Posted by: Melciah on September 3, 2006 07:26 PM
You're getting Married in 9 days? lol. Soon your real life will be as boring as your EQ experience. (Give it a year) Add a few kids and you'll be begging to play EQ again.
Comment Posted by: Aazzn on September 7, 2006 09:10 PM
You don't need a big guild to raid in everquest, alot of servers have active alliances or smaller guilds or raiding group channels for open raids. What SoE should really invest in doing, is on the sly, hire a few people per server to run open raids like that, either working together or alone to help involve casuals in parts of the game they normally don't experience. That would help people learn both how to raid and get better gear. 2 things the hinder them from joining guilds. It wouldn't need to be the highest end things, but there certainly would be anything wrong with "GM-assisted" raids in luclin, planes of power, LoY (all 2 or 3 raidish events that are there) even and especially LDoN(an expansion very few people have done the raids for). It would get people together, break the monotony of AA'ing with the same crew, or sitting lfg for hours, and introduce people to each other, which is really what keeps people playing this game for the long run anyways.
Comment Posted by: skkline on September 12, 2006 11:18 AM
This is soooo true, i'm a casual player and have been for the 6 years and it is getting more and more hard to find a group ,I am not in a guild and i have even resorted to making new characters so i dont have to wait around, but even with the low level characters i cant seem to find a group.
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