The Battle of Ashengate

by Loral on October 05, 2006

In my preview of the Serpent's Spine I had one major criticism: the ultra-high-end difficulty of Ashengate and Frostcrypt, the two high-end hunting zones in the expansion. As I understood it, Ashengate and Frostcrypt were designed for "ultra-high-end" players. While the definition itself was not clearly explained, I assumed that meant it was designed for those hunters equipped in high-end raid gear.

Upon release, the difficulty matched the power of these ultra-high-end raiders. The only hunters capable of effectively hunting in these two zones were those in very high-end raid armor. The orcs, drakes, golems, and oozes of Ashengate unleashed catastrophic levels of damage. High-end raiders spoke well of their hunts there except for one complaint:

For high-end raiders, the rewards were too low powered.

Now we get into the twisting argument of raid-level single group hunting. There are four rules which overlap and half contradict one another, four truths we have seen since the days of Velious.

Truth 1: Raiders want challenging content.

Truth 2: Single-group hunters want to progress to the most challenging single group events.

Truth 3: All players want meaningful tangible rewards.

Truth 4: Single-group content cannot drop raid-level rewards or raiding becomes obsolete.

When the development team builds high-end encounters, events, or zones, and sends them through the filter of these four truths, they end up with weird results:

Result 1: Events are too underpowered for high-end raiders because they have to be tuned so single-group hunters could eventually reach them.

Result 2: Single group hunters can't progress to raid-level power because they don't raid.

Result 3: Raiders rarely receive meaningful equipment rewards from single group hunts.

Last Friday night, on 29 September, Ashengate changed. The mobs hit for a lot less and had fewer hitpoints. Suddenly the high end raiders started carving down the beasts that troubled them before and high-end single group hunters or raiders of lower powered raid targets could hunt effectively and profitably within Ashengate.

The boards lit up with anger at the change from the high-end raiders who enjoyed the challenge of this beautiful and entertaining zone. After pages of discussion, Rashere, the lead designer of the Serpent's Spine, had this to say:

"It's a no-win situation. If we tune the content to be a serious challenge for high-end raiders in a single group, you'll complain that the loot is worthless since the only upgrades you could use are raid-level upgrades and those aren't going to come off single group content. If we threw that aside and tune up both the content and the loot so that its an upgrade to your raid gear, you'll complain that there's no reason to raid anymore cause the gear is available from single groups. And, obviously, if we tune the content to the point where its challenging to players who can use the loot coming out of it, you'll complain that the zone is too easy."

For years the equipment power gap between high-end raiders has been discussed. In one of my favorite historical articles, Moorgard describes the gear canyon between the single group and raid gear in Scars of Velious over five years ago. I've written half a dozen articles on that topic alone and referenced it hundreds of times elsewhere.

Now it comes to a peak in Ashengate. Now we have a zone that both raiders and non-raiders want but only one of them can have. Now the twisting logic of high-end raiding versus high-end single grouping is articulated in that one statement by Rashere.

What can solve this no-win situation? Is there a solution? Many people propose many theories, including myself, but almost all of these theories are swayed by the play style of the theorist. They all boil down to the following:

Solution 1: Put in content difficult enough that it challenges high-end raiders. Put in rewards that matter to them but won't make raiding obsolete. Of course, what would that be?

Solution 2: Tune all single group content around single-group players. Raiders raid and non-raiders don't. The problem is, raiders don't raid all the time and they don't want to. They like single group challenges too and being a high-end raider shouldn't cut them off from that. As a counter argument, however, non-raiders are cut off from all kinds of content in every expansion so why is it a problem that raiders are likewise cut off?

Solution 3: Put in two versions of a zone with a "normal" and "hard". They tried this in Depths of Darkhollow but the differences between the two versions were slight. People can't so easily be broken down into those two groups and improper tuning could make both versions worthless.

Solution 4: Close the gap. Make equipment progress from level 1 to high-end level 75. Offer clear equipment paths for single group hunters all the way up to the highest single group content and make the power of that gear closer to the power of raid gear. The problem with this could be quite severe. If its too powerful a lot of high-end raids of previous expansions get cut out.

This also brings up some questions better asked and answered by SOE. For a long time SOE has remained fuzzy when it comes to the tuning of content. They speak of difficulty compared to old zones, not compared to the levels, AAs, and gear power of players. Level, gear, and AAs are specific good metrics against which to tune content but it is largely avoided. So lets ask SOE these questions:

Question 1: How can SOE apply metrics to gear just as they have to level and AAs?

Question 2: How can SOE tune content around levels, gear, and AAs instead of basing it on the difficulty of underused or outdated content from the past?

Question 3: What can SOE offer high-end raiders that will reward them for single group hunts but not make raiding obsolete?

It all comes down to the same general philosophies held by the designers and held by the players. Who deserves what? Do high-end raiders deserve as much challenging single group content as one who only does single groups? Who deserves high end equipment and what should be required for them to receive it?

There are some other questions worthy of consideration. Recently, Blizzard announced that World of Warcraft would be moving to a 20 person maximum raid count. Everquest 2 caps their raids at 24. This leaves Everquest alone as the game with the largest raids of any MMO. I would aruge that Everquest has the largest and most well developed raid game of any massive online game.

Should SOE capitalize on this? Should they further develop this raid game? Should they seek ways to get more players into that area of the game as players progress? Or is the raiding game a black hole that will never have enough players willing to spend the kind of time required to progress through Everquest's vast raid content?

Most importantly, what would Loral recommend? I'm glad you asked.

Loral's recommendations to SOE:

1. Begin tuning content around existing player power including level, AAs, and gear power. Come up with a simple metric for gear power that consolidates damage output, statistical bonuses, combat bonuses, and focus effects. Each piece of gear should have a well defined "power level".

2. Tune content around the current and proposed breakdown in player power. If most players are level 70 raiders, tune content towards them. Tune expansion content at the percentage breakdown equal to the power of existing playing players as well as where you expect them to be and where you would like them to be.

3. Clearly decide when raid content can be acceptably trivialized by single-group drops. Is it one year after release? Two? Three? Right now single group equipment just barely reaches the power of raid equipment from Gates of Discord, an expansion released five expansions back and two and a half years ago.

4. In instanced expansions, offer well-tuned "normal" content for high-end non-raiders and "hard" content for high-end raiders.

5. Shorten the equipment gap. Make single group gear 75% of raid gear in the same expansion. If raiders can now receive 400 hitpoint and mana gear average from the expansion's end-zone, offer 300 hitpoint and mana gear for high-end non-raiders.

6. Build in content that helps non-raiders get into the raiding game. The raiding game is a clear strength of Everquest. Establish strategies that will reveal this strength to more players. Make it easier for non-raiders to become raiders. Locate the gaps faced by those who want to raid and those who do and address them. Build in better pickup-raid tools and content.

As the spine of the world continues to settle, our eyes watch the burning fires of Ashengate. Therein two armies battle against each other in a war that has lasted six years. Therein lies the foundation for the future of Norrath.

Loral Ciriclight
5 October 2006
loral@loralciriclight.com

Comment Posted by: Skuz Bukit on October 6, 2006 05:02 AM

Good article which highlights a very longstanding issue, as long as Everquest has had "raid events" it has had to reward those that were able to defeat such events with something that reflected not only the difficulty of the encounter but a certain amount of prestige.

Fast forward to today & at the very heart of the issues that are involved in the frostcrypt/ashengate tuning/re-tuning is the gear-gap that has evolved.

The one thing that annoys me is the very term "raider versus casual" since that is a very black & whiter term for the players of everquest & it truly cannot reflect the vast amount of variety in players of this game, variety in playtime, gear, ability, aa the list goes on.

I think SoE do need to define clearly, to themselves if not to us where exactly this gear-gap needs to be to let everquest be healthier, & i think Loral, you are right there needs to be numbers involved in this, a genuine metric that underlies the gear itemisation the game needs to stay fun, so getting "bogged down" in numbers would be a bad thing, but all the same a straightforward plan of how gear is "stratified" to give groupers gear that is at least able to offer a very hard working player a set of gear that would enable him to be an assest to a raiding guild working on a certain level of content.

As for what would be an interesting reward for a raider that would not undermine raiding content, I think there are answers to that, these aren't my personal ideas, I borrowed these from discussions on the eqlive boards.

Clickies.....
Augments.....

These two things can be tuned to sit smack dab in the middle,of the gear itemisation, something all players would want, gear could be tuned around augments, the raiders gaining a little extra hp & effects (such as spellshield), the non raiders gaining very meaningful upgrades to weak gear that bring it up to higher standards, put them in reasonable reach of the raiders &......can stay with them & augment raid gear as they move into that style of play if they choose to.

For clickies take the DoDh mask as an example, groupers wanted it to wear, raiders wanted it for the clicky, itemisation like this on a reward for an "overarching" quest was a stroke of genius.

The slipgear gem charm augment was another great idea, & they have repeated that idea in TSS, a good move.

I did enjoy the pre-tuned versions of those two zones, they were hard, & it was good to be enjoying group content, some of the rewards were I think very worthy to a raider, for example the augments that have sv v corruption are very much what a current-content raider wants to get his hands on so if they had meant for these zones to only interest high end groupers why put a save on augs that are only going to be relevant in this new expansions raid-content?

I think the devs really want to give raiders a zone where they can group & have fun, be challenged & gain meaningful rewards, they just haven't quite hit on how to do that yet, for me, right now it would be a zone where I could get interesting & fun "toys" such as illusion,invis,invis undead,levitation,damage shield,attack, etc etc clickies, whether via quests or drops or zonewide rares & augments with sv corruption on them or other stuff.

Comment Posted by: Softcore Nonraider on October 6, 2006 08:57 AM

One thing that keeps coming up and up is the idea that an hour spend raiding is worth more than an hour spend grouping.

I don't understand this, argument abound that if groupgear would be on par with raid gear noone would want to raid... This would seem to indicate that raiding is no fun, and people only do it for the gear, while most raiders claim the exact opposite.

Don't get me wrong I don't want people grouping to have it easier to get those items, it should be just as hard. If a 30 people raid that takes 8 hours (2 hours prep and and 6 hours of playing), that same item should be obtainable through 40 hour single group content.

With single group content I don't mean the kind of stuff that people now have to do, when they don't have raid gear, I mean the sort of stuff that requires a notch more dedication even than the old version of Ashengate. Which could be done if no gear cap exists.

That way people could either choose to raid for the items, or on average spend just as much time grouping for it, dedicated grouping with everyone hand on the keyboard, not 6 boxing.

Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on October 6, 2006 10:35 AM

The core problem is SOE has lost sight of the goal of a "raid"

In the first years of Everquest you would gather up 40 to 70 of your best friends, allies, and complete strangers and you would take on s foe so horrible it was staggering to think any would survive and indeed, many times no one survive. But such was the life of the people raiding Vox and Naggy.

The end result of all that effort, 1, maybe 2 drops that would be contested by all 40 to 70 people.

Let's look at that. Very few "raid" targets. No special gear, levels, aa, anything needed. What was needed was numbers and tactics. The rewards for success were few and slim and only just a nudge better than you could get elsewhere.

That was the origin of the "raid"

The problem is SOE got lazy. They wanted to make whole zones, then tiers of zones, and then practically whole expansions, all for "raiders", all just dripping in cool l33t drops. The game became over flowing with no drop ubber swords of god slaying. Each expansion having to have newer, bigger, better, more l33t swords and shiney things.

Suddenly you have a whole segment of the game palyer base that not only has gear that dipps raw ubberness leaving a greasy snail trail behind it of gibbering l33t shinyness, but they feel they are entitiled to not just that, but more, and better, and locked zones they will be the only ones to see, and special programming, and and and and...

So the spiral began, twisting in, ever faster, the pace between the original game and this new "raid or quit" game spilting ever further apart.

Is there a way to make the two games co-exist?

Frankly, no. The two player bases are to the point they hate each other on sight. Simply mention the term casual or raider in a post and the number of SOE fanboys that come screaming out of the works to decry you as the devil is legion.

Probably there is a solution. The progression servers showed there may be a light at the end of the tunel. Maybe not a long term solution as frankly SOE can't afford to make seperate expansions for both casual and raiders and they have proven to the point of stupidity they have not idea how to blend the two.

The solution is no doubt to make a new cleaner better set up progression server, one where there are not lingering exploits, nerfs, or screw ups that give some group an unfair advantage. Then make the tasks to unlock each new expansion truely monolithic such that two to three years may be needed to reach Planes of Power.

The net result is you've created a haven for the "casual" players. Some place where the pace of the game is slower, the ceiling not so high, the difference between players not so insurmountable.

That free's up SOE to continue to focus on expansions designed with pure raid content. Stuff with 12 zones, and 40 instances, the very opening zone of which will be so harsh that 40 man teams level 75 with 1800 AA and the very best of gear will find themselves riddled with fear.

Is it the best solution? No. Is it one SOE could actually given thier talent pool and abilities pull off? Yes.

Frankly SOE doesn't have the will, the talent, or the programming know how to actually fix the game as it exists. They are unwilling to look at thier past mistakes and fix them. They only are looking at churning out "new" expansions. Never at fixing the existing quests, skills, talents, aa's, classes, races, zones, etc. Doing so would require having a solid well thought out plan. To co-op a term, a Vision(tm). Something SOE simply doesn't have.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 6, 2006 11:21 AM

We'll never see "raid-only" expansions, simply because SOE wants everyone to buy them. It's also far too late to seriously think about removing the raider/non-raider gear gap. At this point people play EQ because of what it is, and a fundamental change like that would simply drive people to the many high-quality alternatives which are now available.

But does the raider/non-raider gap have to cover every single item? I think Skuz Bukit is on the right track, but I'd take it a step further: what if there were two or three slots where the drops from the top level single group zone were 5-10% better than the drops from the top level raid zone? This wouldn't take away the incentive to raid as the bulk of your power would come from the "raid slots." It wouldn't even require single group play since the difference is fairly small. But it would give raiders something rewarding to do in a single group.

I'm assuming of course that the top level single group zone is designed for people who are also raiding the top level raid zone. Non-raiders wouldn't stand a chance, but they'd have their own zones. As would raiders who are in less than the top end raiding content. There should be a whole continuum of zones, both to accomodate different levels of raiders and to provide a progression path for non-raiders.

And when would the non-raiders be able to do the top level single group zone? If it's true that SOE is making non-raid gear have 75% of the power of raid gear, then if the top level raid gear in expansion Y is 1/3 more powerful than the top level raid gear in expansion X, then non-raiders in expansion Y will gain the same power that raiders gained in expansion X. You'd have to tell me how long it takes raider gear to increase in power by 1/3, but my impression is that it's not long.

There are two things I suspect are missing that makes this not work out in practice:

1) Yes, gear strength and progression needs to be rationalized. WoW devs imposed the discipline of "item levels" on themselves right from the beginning. A level 60 item has so many "points" to "spend" on stats, bonuses, procs, etc., each of which are assigned a value. EQ should do something similar.

2) SOE needs to really commit to making that 75% number reality, and that means the bulk of active non-raiders needs to have 75% of the power of the build of active raiders. Too much of the tuning has focused on the extremes, mostly the people who play a lot. Yes, tuning for the typical player will allow the extreme players to gear up quickly--but then they'll run out of upgrades when they hit the 75% cap. Better to leave them unhappy (along with the raiders who will complain about how unfair it is that they have it so easy) than the bulk of the players.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 6, 2006 11:26 AM

All I can say in response to that post is, "Wow, someone needs to take a break."

Keisa

Comment Posted by: bleh on October 6, 2006 12:40 PM

The most elegant and simple answer I've seen was the thread on eqlive about reserving high end augs for group content and removing them from (future) raid content.

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=298787

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 6, 2006 01:23 PM

"The two player bases are to the point they hate each other on sight. Simply mention the term casual or raider in a post and the number of SOE fanboys that come screaming out of the works to decry you as the devil is legion."

The forums are never a good gauge of actual player perception.

"The one thing that annoys me is the very term "raider versus casual" since that is a very black & whiter term for the players of everquest & it truly cannot reflect the vast amount of variety in players of this game, variety in playtime, gear, ability, aa the list goes on."

This is a very good point and one of the reasons I work hard to describe the debate between "high-end non-raiders" and "high-end raiders". These are two slivers of a very large group of players. However they tune Ashengate, only a minority of subscribing players will see it.

There was a good article on the different slices of the "player base" for electronic gaming that broke out of the "hard core" vs "casual" stereotypes. It mainly breaks it down into five other stereotypes that still don't well define the player base, but at least the percentages are better.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6156757.html

http://www.parksassociates.com/research/reports/tocs/2005/networked_gaming.htm

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 6, 2006 01:25 PM

To save you the clicks...

Based on a survey of almost 2,000 US online gamers, Cai broke the market up into the following segments:

Power gamers--Only accounting for 11 percent of the gaming audience, they make up 30 percent of the revenue drawn by retail and online games.

Social gamers--This self-explanatory group games for the social interactions with friends.

Leisure gamers--This group mostly sticks to casual games (playing as many as 58 hours a month), but doesn't shy away from challenging titles.

Dormant gamers--These people really enjoy gaming, but can't play often due to other time commitments. When they do find time to play, they prefer complex, challenging titles and playing with friends or family.

Incidental gamers--The incidental crowd plays games if they're bored and can spend more than 20 hours each month with online games.

Occasional gamers--Part of the previously labeled "casual" group, occasional gamers rarely stray beyond the genres of puzzle games, word games, and board games.

Cai said that of these groups, the "traditionally ignored" social, leisure, and dormant gamers made up 53 percent of the online gaming community, and 56 percent of the retail revenue brought in by games. As an example of how this market is underserved at present, Cai said that social and leisure gamers want the social-gaming aspects that power gamers have come to expect, even if the types of games they play are vastly different.

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 6, 2006 01:29 PM

"1) Yes, gear strength and progression needs to be rationalized. WoW devs imposed the discipline of "item levels" on themselves right from the beginning. A level 60 item has so many "points" to "spend" on stats, bonuses, procs, etc., each of which are assigned a value. EQ should do something similar."

Ironically, WOW has a huge equipment gap between single-group equipment and high-end raid equipment. It becomes horrifyingly clear in battlegrounds where my level 60 hunter gets regularly two-rounded by high-end rogues.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 6, 2006 02:19 PM

"Ironically, WOW has a huge equipment gap between single-group equipment and high-end raid equipment."

Nothing ironic about that--it was a deliberate and extremely stupid design decision. There are some indications it will get rolled back in the expansion, but we'll see. Not that that has anything to do with my point.

Item levels do give a concrete way to discuss the issue. If players have figured out WoW item levels as well as they think they have, the top raid gear is around level 90. Meanwhile, the top non-raid gear is around level 60. Knowing that helps the discussion move beyond anecdotes ("my level 60 hunter gets regularly two-rounded by high-end rogues") to specific discussions of what's wrong.

In EQ the best you can do is talk about hit points and mana and hope that's a good proxy for all the other things you want out of your gear (see examples in the article). Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

Incidentally, I'm not at all convinced the gear gap is bigger in WoW than in EQ, but it is more of a problem. WoW's PvP rubs peoples' noses in the gap on a daily basis. (Fortunately for me I strongly prefer dungeons to PvP.)

Comment Posted by: Swampfunk on October 6, 2006 02:24 PM

Loral, very good article. Perhaps you enlightened a whole new batch of people. The risk vs reward argument, man, its like a rubix (sp?) cube. You'll never solve it.

To me, I say tune the drops in Ashengate (AG) and Frostcrypt (FC) to be straight up anguish hp/ac, with 50% anguish secondary stats... and anguish level focus. A little better than MPG Trials gear. Put Ashengate a little bit tougher than its current incarnation, people will improve, we don't want the zone to be a cake walk in 3 months when everyone is starting see bigger expansion improvements. I hope its a riftseeker's type of zone, aimed for all, not just hardcore (and I'm a hardcore player!)

As a raider, I have been getting plenty of challenge from this expansion, but I want to see more players that can handle current content, effectively.

Do you know how long it has been since I found a pickup LFG from a guild outside of raiding guilds? And they could cut it? It has been years.

Comment Posted by: Crumpkin on October 6, 2006 04:28 PM

What do you expect from your mmo?

That is what all of these games suffer from.

One person expects to "hardcore" raid and have better equipment then everyone else.

Another person expects to be able to explore "everywhere" but doesn't want to raid to be able to do it.

Some people want to socialize and spend time with friends who raid.

A mob that is difficult for a group of hardcore raiders and drops gear that they would want equals a raid target for non hardcore guilds. This would end with the hardcore raiders trying to exp and get a drop or two being trampled by lower tiered guilds running to get to those mobs.

In any mmog that has "raiding" one level 75(substitute the level cap for your game) does not equal another level 75. You have your hardcore raiding level 75 who has the best of the best equipment, all of their aa, etc. Then you have your 75 that was powerleveled, hasn't bothered to get any worthwhile gear and has no aa. And then there are all shades of gray in between.

I have yet to see a game try to show or judge these differences. Leaving it up to the places to "guess" whether or not their group will be able to successfully hunt in a given area.

The main reason why this has never been done is because the hardcore raiders are going to stick together and only group with each other. Why? because it is more efficient then trying to add someone who will not be able to handle the zone they want to go to. People who aren't hardcore raiders will still feel like they are being gipped because the raiders are still grouping in places that they can't go. And if you never put zones out there that are extremely tough then raiders feel gipped because they have spent all this time on their character and they have nothing challenging to do except raid.

The biggest problem: Expansions are "designed" for "everyone" so the more will be sold.
Why that is a problem: Not everyone is the same. And no one expansion will truly cater to everyone no matter how hard they try.
Solution: Is there one? Expansions will never be designed to cater to a certain group. Hardcore raiders need challenging single group content just as much as everyone else does.

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 6, 2006 04:44 PM

"Incidentally, I'm not at all convinced the gear gap is bigger in WoW than in EQ, but it is more of a problem. WoW's PvP rubs peoples' noses in the gap on a daily basis. (Fortunately for me I strongly prefer dungeons to PvP.)"

I really wish WOW spent as much time making it easy to get into a dungeon group as it has getting people to kill eachother.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 7, 2006 01:49 AM

Blizzard has said that the new LFG system will come out with the expansion. As will battleground "brackets" that will match up teams with similar gear, reducing the effect of the gear gap. Of course to hear Blizzard talk, the expansion will also slice bread, bring peace to the Middle East, and extend the day to 25 hours so you have more time to play it.

I'm afraid you may also be a victim of class bias: the hunter who solos to 60 and then wipes your group is something of a WoW cliche.

Comment Posted by: Ladwenae_AB on October 7, 2006 10:02 AM

"Most importantly, what would Loral recommend? I'm glad you asked."
That one made me lol irl.

I like this article, but I also think it highlights the one issue that are really hurting EQ, and have been the achilies heel of EQ for a long time. The gear gap needs to be closed and that requires a lot better itemization. We saw an attempt on a "casual" raid zone to gear up with Theater of Blood in PoR, but the RvR was competely out of wack because basicly the dropped armor there lacked upgrades from DoDh hard instanced rewards and chest drops. This time we have new group armor quests that actually looks fairly decent when it gets powered up in terms of foci and mod2, but its still basicly Qvic armor and that just doesnt cut it in todays game. Group armor that takes a ton of effort should be at least 270 hp/mana and raid level amounts of AC.

Some of the augments that drops in Ashengate and Frostcrypt so far are really nice, I have personally equipped 3 augments so far and I have been a highend raider for years so saying the zone have nothing to offer drop wise is not entirely true imho. I blame Anguish for a lot of this, we basicly got handed 11 easy to get augments there, and they made it pretty hard for the devs to offer worthwhile rewards to those of us who have these augments, I personally spent a crapload of hours in RSS to get augments for myself and my friends and later on our twinks, and those augments will most likely be wanted for years to come.

TSS introduced a lot of new and interesting things and I am pretty sure we havent seen the last content tuning yet, so it will be interesting to see where it ends up both in terms of content and gear...

Comment Posted by: Crumpkin on October 7, 2006 03:10 PM

But is the equipment gap really a problem for EQ? Who are you to say that the hardcore raiders do not deserve the gap considering the time and commitment they have put into the game? Why is it that everytime a zone is designed to be just for hardcore raiders that there are people that whine and complain until SoE nerfs the zone?

The "gap" between hardcore raiders and casual players will continue to widen as time goes on. As it has widened as time has passed. This is not something that SoE planned or can even prevent. Those who dedicate the time and effort to get there do.

This is not an issue about "gaps" in equipment. Consider the difference between hardcore raiders and casual players as a level difference. Level 70s do not group with level 50s for a reason.

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 7, 2006 09:28 PM

"This is not an issue about "gaps" in equipment. Consider the difference between hardcore raiders and casual players as a level difference."

This is exactly why a metric is important. I don't have a problem at all with SOE tuning content for high-end raiders as long as it is clear that the number of those high end raiders who would use the content justify its creation. For example, if 10% of your active player base are high end raiders, they should get 10% of the content.

However, tuning content around fuzzy concepts like "high end raider" instead of "level 70 with between 500 and 750 AAs and gear power of 3000" makes the content no good to anyone.

Good metrics could define a charcter's equipment power so that content can be tuned around it instead of just guessed.

I would like to see the gear gap follow levels. There should be a gear gap between a level 65 high-end raiders in GOD and a level 65 single-group hunter. There shoudn't be a gap between a 65 high end raider and a level 75 non-raider, though.

Comment Posted by: Gurunt on October 7, 2006 11:14 PM

The best solution IMO would be:

Gear that drops for groups in places like Ashengate, that get upgraded via raids.. Make some high end raid instances where in addition to 1-2 raid-loots, the players can trade in their grp version of an item for the raid version.. or, give the new gear from these zones unique aug slots and have the augs be raid drops.

This would make the loot desirable to both group and raid level players, AND give additional loot draw to the raids.. and in the end, the raiders would end up with the better gear.. and all while sharing the same main zone.

Comment Posted by: Lane on October 8, 2006 10:39 PM

Loral How can you say that SOE is helping the non raiders when they deny all the level 69 70 spells to these non raiders who can only acquire these by looting rots if they are lucky?

Thats bs.

Comment Posted by: casual nonraider on October 9, 2006 06:27 AM

Crumpkin wrote:

" But is the equipment gap really a problem for EQ? Who are you to say that the hardcore raiders do not deserve the gap considering the time and commitment they have put into the game? "

But we aren't discussing casual vs raider gaps.

We are discussing raiders vs hardcore players that don't raid. It is simply not true that those hardcore players put less effort and time into the game. (In some cases, more than some people in a raid....).

So what it boils down to is that raiding time and effort is evaluated as being worth more than putting in just as much time and effort into a grouping quest/mission at the same gear/class/experience level.

I disagree that the value of someone's playtime should be determined by playstyle rather than by how much effort the player puts into his game.

The only thing this would change about EQ would be that _hardcore_ players that don't raid have close to the same equipment as raiders. But still the raiders have the awesome experience and thrill of raiding (which time and time again they claim is their main motivation for raiding). This could only be good:

1) Ashengate could be made back to it's original incantation as it could then be done by both classes of players (in fact people used to beating though group based content, might even be a little better at beating it)

2) It would be easier for people in raiding guilds to grab a pick-up cleric, tank or dpser, that was more up to snuff when they only manage to get a group of 5 people out.

3) Itemization would be easier, and cases about bad itemization could be made more forcible if it affected all hardcore players.

Don't get me wrong, even with these changes, I with my playstyle, will never be in that kind of gear. Mainly because I don't want to put that much time and effort into the game. While I disagree with Crumpkin that raiding time and effort is somehow worth more, I DO agree with him that the gear should be the result of a lot of time and effort put into the game.

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 9, 2006 07:56 AM

"Loral How can you say that SOE is helping the non raiders when they deny all the level 69 70 spells to these non raiders who can only acquire these by looting rots if they are lucky?"

At least the spells are now researchable and droppable even though the costs and efforts are rediculous. It would probably be better to simply level to the next set of spells and buy them in TSS, skipping the Omens spells completely.

SOE sure didn't do Omens spells right but they got it right in Serpent's Spine.

Comment Posted by: Toadwart on October 9, 2006 11:12 AM

Something I'm not sure that I've seen, and quite likely will get me screamed down by the "raid" group: Make Raid gear only useable in Raid encounters. Everything is an upward progression anyway, so enforce that. Let players raid with any solo, single group, or raid gear, but Raid dropped gear, can only be used against raid opponents. Or give raid gear dual stats, Raid mob stats and group mob stats. In this way the raider does take the shaft to some extent, but still can group, and solo at a challenging level. The difference being skill, not l33t gear.

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 9, 2006 12:38 PM

There are a lot of ideas for how to get the gap closed that all involve some pretty substantial changes to the game overall. I think the EQ team is a bit worried about changing things too drastically from a mechanics perspective.

I think SOE needs to decide when they can make previous content obsolete by putting in new single-group content with comparable stats. How long should Anguish be more profitable?

If it were up to me, items and levels would be more rigid. A level 65 item shouldn't still be useful to someone at 75 even if it is high-end raid gear.

On the other hand, there is a lot of exciting content in older expansions that a lot of folks might skip over if the gear is undesirable. Flipping back again, should SOE really be putting in content that players won't see for three years?

It's all quite complicated, isn't it.

Comment Posted by: Lane on October 9, 2006 02:16 PM

""Loral How can you say that SOE is helping the non raiders when they deny all the level 69 70 spells to these non raiders who can only acquire these by looting rots if they are lucky?"

""At least the spells are now researchable and droppable even though the costs and efforts are rediculous. It would probably be better to simply level to the next set of spells and buy them in TSS, skipping the Omens spells completely.""

Catch 22 - It's necessary to level quite a bit to get spells = to or better than the missing 69 & 70 spells, but you can't level (or not easily anyway) without the missings spells because no one wants to group/gimp with someone missing two levels of spells? Ever try playing in a level 73 zone with level 67/68 spells? Not fun I can tell you.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 9, 2006 03:35 PM

It hurts some classes more than others. I imagine a cleric might do okay. But it leaves an enchanter completely incapable of mezzing.

Comment Posted by: xsi on October 9, 2006 11:42 PM

"4. In instanced expansions, offer well-tuned "normal" content for high-end non-raiders and "hard" content for high-end raiders."

Add an 'easy' for low-mid end non-raiders too please... or we'll have another DoD, where I cannot do the 'normal' instances at all until 2 expansions later...

(Which is precisely why I've decided to avoid buying any EQ expansions that lack level increases... I don't get to experience most of the content until years later anyway)

Comment Posted by: UnCasual on October 10, 2006 01:09 AM

If the zones hadn't been tweaked down a bit, then I'd not of been happy getting an expansion with only 2 zones to do anything in. Get clickies and spells from Icefall/Direwind, then be unable to see the rest of the expansion? Least with the retune we've got an expansion if feels like it was worth shelling out the nearly 30 bucks for (high price for a download with few zones that aren't actually capable of supporting the amount of people hitting them). Not like it's zero xp for higher end people now, but it was unusuable by <CoA people before (and even at CoA levels it's probably not a walkover like many keep saying it is). This has opened up the expansion. There's still plenty of raid content for everyone to break down and show their uberness, let the none-uber get something out of this expansion for goodness sakes.
My solution.
Decent dropped gear that's upgraded by raid drops. Isn't that how the armour system's working in this expansion anyway? Might mean the uber won't wear it until they also get the raid drop, but means the drop won't go to waste if a lower geared toon picks it up. Hell, they might even get to re-use it later themselves as they power up.

Comment Posted by: Lane on October 10, 2006 02:15 AM

just an observation but, except on new newbie zones, I havent seen any chars in the new race. If anyone cared, they would prolly be PL.

Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on October 10, 2006 05:22 AM

So far I haven't seen anything that is a compelling reason to go out and buy this expansion.

Comment Posted by: Lane on October 10, 2006 07:59 PM

its ironic that all the spells non raiders in the low 70s dont need are for sale in the bazaar and the spells they desperately DO need are unavailable.

Comment Posted by: xsi on October 11, 2006 04:23 AM

"its ironic that all the spells non raiders in the low 70s dont need are for sale in the bazaar and the spells they desperately DO need are unavailable. "

What spells are these? The few TSS spells not available on the vendor?

For my part, I'm only taking my group to ~72, so as to not outlevel the xp instances we can currently handle. I've found that, more often than not, this means I won't get an upgrade to my 69/70 spells.

Unfortunately, I don't actually have those 69/70 spells yet... and the research for them (like most tradeskill stuff since Ngreth joined SOE) seems like a huge pain in the butt. So, if the oow spells are the ones you are referring to, then I'm 100% in agreement. :)

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 11, 2006 07:35 AM

Enchanters got screwed with a 69 or 70 mez but other than that I haven't seen a 69 or 70 spell that was absolutely required. As a cleric, I still haven't gotten all of my level 70 spells and I plan to just outlevel them and buy the 74 and 75 versions.

Comment Posted by: Krylax on October 11, 2006 09:04 AM

Loral said --> Enchanters got screwed with a 69 or 70 mez but other than that I haven't seen a 69 or 70 spell that was absolutely required.

That's easy for you to say. The spell you use to heal most of the time is CH and it's vendor bought for a few plat at level 39. As a level 70 shaman who didn't have any 69 or 70 spells it was almost impossible for me to play the role of main healer unless I was grouped with a tank that is wearing high end raid gear. Even then it was touch and go on multi - pulls. So now the solution is that i'm supposed reactivate my account, buy the last 2 expansions I don't have, level my toon to 75, buy the vendor bought spells from TSS, and then I'll be prepared to handle content from 5 expansions ago ??? Hmmm....as tempting as that sounds i think I'll just keep playing World of Warcraft

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 11, 2006 09:51 AM

Krylax: "Loral said --> Enchanters got screwed with a 69 or 70 mez but other than that I haven't seen a 69 or 70 spell that was absolutely required.

That's easy for you to say. The spell you use to heal most of the time is CH and it's vendor bought for a few plat at level 39. As a level 70 shaman who didn't have any 69 or 70 spells it was almost impossible for me to play the role of main healer unless I was grouped with a tank that is wearing high end raid gear. Even then it was touch and go on multi - pulls. So now the solution is that i'm supposed reactivate my account, buy the last 2 expansions I don't have, level my toon to 75, buy the vendor bought spells from TSS, and then I'll be prepared to handle content from 5 expansions ago ??? Hmmm....as tempting as that sounds i think I'll just keep playing World of Warcraft"

Really? You need 69-70 spells to heal someone in appropriate level content? I find that hard to believe.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 11, 2006 10:49 AM

"Enchanters got screwed with a 69 or 70 mez..."

So does that mean you've accepted the fact that an improved spell system in TSS doesn't obviate the need to fix the broken system in OoW? Or are you acquiescing in enchanters being unable to perform a core class function for thee or four levels?

And I don't find a shaman (not the primary healer class) struggling to main heal in level 70 content without level 69 or 70 spells implausible at all.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 11, 2006 11:35 AM

Teremar: "So does that mean you've accepted the fact that an improved spell system in TSS doesn't obviate the need to fix the broken system in OoW? Or are you acquiescing in enchanters being unable to perform a core class function for thee or four levels?

"And I don't find a shaman (not the primary healer class) struggling to main heal in level 70 content without level 69 or 70 spells implausible at all."

OK, I'll give you that one. Perhaps the shaman should be looking for another task in the group, like perhaps main slow/debuffer. I don't know when the shaman gets their key heals, but I can tell you that if I am looking for a shaman to heal for the party, I'm expecting that they won't be stressed out doing that job.

Back to your first paragraph... Is it really that hard for people to get 69-70 spells still? By now, MPG isn't that hard for most players, and even RSS isn't that much of a stretch. Yes, enchanters are missing a key spell, but both zones are single pullable for the most part, and named are well within the capabilities of most bazaar geared players. If you find the right people, you can farm spells in Illsalin. It seems to me that there are plenty of doable sources for the spells.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Lane on October 11, 2006 01:18 PM

maybe you dont have trouble getting mpg groups but in my guild raiding time (evenings)is concentrating on finishing all the stupid flags and guildies epic 1.5 kills. no runes. we aren't hard core players.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 11, 2006 02:28 PM

Lane,

Don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it to harm you in any way. I went back and read all of your posts on this thread, and just about everything you say has to do with what you *can't* do.

You can't get your 69-70 spells because SOE is somehow keeping them from you.
You can't level because you can't get groups.
You can't get groups because you don't have those spells.
You can't find groups in MPG because you aren't uber like me? us? whoever?
You can't get groups in MPG because you have to work on stupid flags and help guildies get their epic 1.5.

I'll tell you one thing that is 100% true. You can't do anything that you truly believe that you can't.

Maybe you should take a step back and determine what you can do. You are certain to be happier with your lot if you are able to accomplish something, no matter how small it is. Pick something that you can accomplish and get it done. Then pick something a little harder and do that. Then, one day when you think you can do it, go and tackle one of the tasks you have said that you can't do. Eventually, you will be able to do all those things you said you can't.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 11, 2006 05:17 PM

Keisa, I heartily agree with your philosophy in the real world. But EQ is a game. The rules are completely arbitrary and can be changed at any time. So while focusing on what you can do is a great response to an insurmountable obstacle in real life, if you find one in a game that's bad design and the devs should fix it.

We've got a lot of people here (not just Lane) saying they can't get those spells. And it's apparently preventing them from enjoying the new expansion. Now if you want to argue that they can in fact get those spells, or even better tell them how, that would be a great contribution to the discussion. But I don't think SOE wants them to say "Okay, I'll focus on what I can do. I'll stay at 68, stop buying expansions since they're mostly 70+, and make up my own little goals." First off, SOE wants to sell expansions to everyone, so it's their job to make sure everyone can enjoy them. But SOE also realizes that dropping out of the main stream of progression is a major step towards quitting the game entirely.

Maybe the difficulty of getting those spells is being exagerated. That's an empirical question I can't answer. But if they are that bad to get, then that's a problem that deserves a solution, not philosophical acceptance.

Comment Posted by: hoshisabi on October 11, 2006 05:46 PM

It seems to me one unique solution would be to have single groupable content drop items that are usable for single group players. Let's say the Helm of Modest Power.

Then the raid could drop a quest item which could be used to upgrade one of those single group items. Perhaps the "Gem of Brilliance." That gem of brilliance could be used for multiple item upgrades, and no it's not an augment. You turn in the Helm of Modest Power and the Gem of Brilliance to the NPC "Bob The Collecter of Stuff" and he gives you back the "Helm of Quite a Bit of Power."

Now, the problem is that you have some raiders who are not interested in going back to do the single group content. You don't really need to worry TOO MUCH about them, because most power gamers will gain power at all costs. But, to throw them a bone you can just have the "Gem of Brilliance" also function as an augment, or maybe have it work as an offhand item or a necklace or what have you.

This idea of "combine two pieces of gear into one good piece of gear" forces the raiders to go through the single group content. Heck, you could even have the "Helm of Quite a Bit of Power" be relatively weak and the raiders will still go through it without complaint because "Hey, it upgrades well."

You wouldn't believe how many raiders I've seen learn cooking back in the old days just so they could have a Bristlebane's platter. They're willing to deal with a lot of drudgery for a few more hitpoints.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 11, 2006 06:41 PM

Teremar,

Do you really think getting those items are insurmountable? Thousands of people have gotten their spells.

Do you really think problem solving in this game is any different than problem solving in real life?

Did you really think I told him to stay at 68 because he can't get his 69-70 spells? Is that a meaningful goal for him, one that will give him encouragement on solving other problems in the game?

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Loral on October 11, 2006 06:58 PM

The only time I've seen druids and shaman acting as main healers was when the group was working on content far under its power level. High-end raiders can do hard stuff with a druid or shaman healer, but there the only ones.

I know shamen who hunted all the way up past 70 without having all their 69 and 70 spells.

I don't use CH to heal anymore in groups. If I'm using CH, its because - again - the content is too easy for the power of the group. Any challenging content requires far faster healing than ten second big heals.

TSS made it easier to get Omens spells than it was before. They are now droppable, they can now be researched, the powerlevel of players has gone up so the encounters that drop runes is more accessible. Why is this topic coming up now? Now we have alternatives.

Comment Posted by: Krylax on October 11, 2006 07:28 PM

Keisa said --> Really? You need 69-70 spells to heal someone in appropriate level content? I find that hard to believe.

Tell me something Keisa, what are you baseing that statemaent on ? Have you played a shaman to 70 ? or were you just making a negative comment based on what you feel like believeing ?

Loral said -->Why is this topic coming up now? Now we have alternatives

Because i shouldn't have to shell out yet another $30 to fix a problem that never should have existed to begin with

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 11, 2006 11:38 PM

Krylax: "Keisa said --> Really? You need 69-70 spells to heal someone in appropriate level content? I find that hard to believe.

"Tell me something Keisa, what are you baseing that statemaent on ? Have you played a shaman to 70 ? or were you just making a negative comment based on what you feel like believeing ?"

Interesting question. No, I haven't played a shaman to 70, but I have played with a number of good shamans who were capable of doing some pretty amazing things. Apparently, unlike your, I have a fair bit of respect for their capabilities.

I'm sorry you consider my comments negative. They certainly aren't meant to be. I'm trying to tell people that they are capable of doing these things, far easier than they have ever been before. For the life of me, I can't understand what you think is negative about that.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 12, 2006 12:06 AM

Loral: "Why is this topic coming up now?"

Because the TSS system is essentially an admission by SOE that the OoW system was a bad idea. So why shouldn't SOE act on that admission? Adding the runes to the loot tables of a few more accessible mobs (with a decent drop rate) would be a trivial change and make a lot of people very happy. I don't get why anyone would be opposed to it. Does anyone here really want to claim that the OoW system is how spells should be acquired? Clearly SOE does not.

Keisa: "Do you really think getting those items are insurmountable?"

As I said, that's an empirical question I can't really answer. But it appears to be the number one issue for my friends who still play the game, as well as a lot of posters here. Doesn't the mere fact that so many people still don't have those spells TWO YEARS after the expansion was released suggest that there's a problem?

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 12, 2006 12:50 AM

A couple more potential reasons why it's coming up now:

Because doing level 71 or 72 content when some or all of your vital spells are still level 68 is harder than doing level 70 content with level 68 spells.

Because what might be an okay challenge for "the ultimate spells" is merely discouraging for spells which are stepping stones to higher content--especially when the higher content makes getting spells so much easier. And the more excited you are to do the higher content the worse it is.

Again, I'm not the one to pass judgement on how big a problem this is. But other than Keisa I don't see anyone denying that it's a problem. Some problems are hard to solve, but this one isn't. Thus it should be fixed.

Comment Posted by: lane on October 12, 2006 02:28 AM

Keisa

I appreciate your comments and am sure they are well intentioned. Thank you.

so you suggest that I take on a few easy quests to restore my positive attitude? I'm a level 71 - un pl and un twink so you know I did it the old fashioned way no fancy gear etc

then follow Loral's plan to somehow level to 74 to get the replacement spells I need (and skip the OOW spells altogether) even though I am useless to groups without my spells and forget the reseach route (have you LOOKED at the recipies?) I would spend the 2 years just making ONE spell

meanwhile ignore my guild rules that I MUST raid with them to finish all flags and epic 1.5 at all prime raiding times

when as teremar said it would be a very easy fix for SOE to make spells available TWO YEARS after the fact.

its just not a fun realistic solution.

maybe the answer to frustration reduction is to play wow instead

Comment Posted by: lane on October 12, 2006 03:04 AM

oh yeh I forgot to mention that only certain classes can research all those missing spells and Im not a class that can so can you imagine how much i would have to pay for the service? if anyone was willing to do it for me? makes the earlier comments about not wanting the farmers to profit look like a joke when the bazaar is flooded with upgrades to the purchased 71+ spells..

Comment Posted by: pondon on October 12, 2006 07:30 AM

If you're in a guild in which you don't have any friends, people who will not group with you off-raid times, I have wonder why you are in the guild.

For the most part, people who got their spells (69-70), worked together. Unfortunately, expansions have moved on and it is harder to find help in older content. This is where true friends/groupmates come in.

Right now, I'm back in DoD doing the progression missions. I haven't even been in PoR or TSS (except for buying spells) yet. I have a small group of friends and we're still having fun finishing off everyone's arcs. We're behind the curve but could care less. There is so much single group stuff to do compared to a couple years ago, there will probably be 2 more expansions out before we get to PoR.

Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on October 12, 2006 08:42 AM

Keisa,

I gotta tell you, you have the most wild eyes happy view of the current state of the game of anyone I've seen and read the comments on, and that includes people like Nolrog, so that's saying something.

First you seem to beleive that a re-tool of the AA exp system that effectively leaves people who have worked hard to finally be able to solo as a caual player and make headway on those 1500+ aa's stranded with no place to go as "good".

Now you seem to defend the idea that a spell research system that makes some, but not all of the two or more year old content researchable, but only if you buy the latest greatest expansion as none of the items drop in any other zones, while making a new tiered system that allows some (but certainly not all) of a classes 71-75 spells be vendor bought. As again "good".

Let me follow your logic here from a "immersive role playing game" point of view.

Spell A is "discovered" in the fantastic lairs of the Gates of Discord where enbattled armies war against the invading hord. These spells are scrolled and ready ro scribe in your spell book.

But allas.... No one can figure out how do duplicate these wonderful scrolls....

UNTIL!!! A wonderfull new land is discovered, but no, it's no where near the war with discord that is still going on appearently with no change in the balance of power two years later (EQ's version of WWI trench warfare I guess), it's a land so far away you'd think the war with discord was some foolish tale told to children, children who will never be able to get 5 strangers together long enough to go see for themselves. And Lo! Lo! until you I say let there be research. For somehow these place that's never seen or heard of discord somehow this place is where you can find all the things to make spells you could only find in discord.

Okay Keisa, tell me, tell me with a straight face. What part of the idea behind an immersive roleplaying game is SOE following? What grand unified theme does this all mesh together with?

Heck just tell me how "reseach" as a trade skill is unified? Or how the availability of spells, or skills, or progression makes sense?

SOE has yet again made an expansion an acted as if everthing that has been done for the last 7 years was non-existant.

They've yet again made a re-tool of the game so that those that where already in the top 1% will have an even greater chasm between themselves and the rest of the server population.

How Keisa, how, is this all such a great bloody good thing?

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 12, 2006 09:40 AM

Lane,

The first thing I would tell you is get rid of the concept that you are useless in a group. Look at what you can bring to a group and work off that. No class brings nothing to a group without high level spells.

If you are an enchanter or a shaman, you bring at the very least slow. I am a beastlord. Your slow will be at least as good as mine and that is the strength that gets me at least 50% of the groups I am in. In either case, your haste will be far better than mine in a group, and every melee wants my haste (though they could get as good or better from potions *cough*).

The key to success is leveraging your strengths and mitigating your weaknesses. Let the people you join know you won't be able to heal as well as other 71s/mez those 73 mobs/whatever, then tell them what you can bring to the group. Believe me, you'll find people who will group with you, especially your guildies.

If your goal is to get to levels where you can get those nice spells, try to get into high exp, low danger places. The nest is a cake walk these days. Get your guild to do Lair of the Blackwing. You'll get good exp and crystals to buy nice armor and augments if you need that. Otherwise, you can sell the crystals and buy even better stuff in the bazaar. You might even get drake scales and hides which sell for nice profit. It's doable with even low end geared groups.

You MUST raid with your guild. I assume, by this statement, that it leaves you no time to group. Maybe you should consider if this is the guild for you. My guild cut back a lot, not so long ago. I went with some friends to a guild that raided every night. Within two weeks, I knew that I didn't want to raid every night, so I went to another guild that fit my style better. Guilds are two way streets. You should give something to the guild and you should benefit by being there. If you cannot get what you need, maybe there is a guild that fits your playstyle better, somewhere else.

I wouldn't look for spell research as a solution. Since most 71-75 spells are purchasable, I'd level to be able to buy
them. That's just me. It is perfectly within your grasp. If you do that, the lack of availability of 69-70 spells becomes moot.

At any rate, good luck to you.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on October 12, 2006 09:52 AM

Keisa,

Tell you what. Ignore everything I just posted.

I just quit. Logged into SOE Station, closed the account.

There is a time when you have to realize that what a game was, it isn't any more. The rules change, there is no clear vision on what the game is supposed to entail. It looses it's fun factor.

So what ever you where about to say. Enough. You win.

I quit.

Comment Posted by: gordulek_stromm on October 12, 2006 09:58 AM

Can I have your stuff?

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 12, 2006 11:16 AM

Richard,

We all pay our money to enjoy playing a game and be entertained by it. There comes a time when we no longer enjoy doing the things we did, or because of changes to us or to the product, we are no longer entertained by it. That is the time to move on and find other things to do with our time and our money. For the record, that's partially paraphrasing what you said and making it more general.

I wish you the best in whatever you do. May you find something out there that you enjoy doing with your time.

Good luck and good hunting.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Tuppet on October 12, 2006 02:30 PM

Not to rub anyone's face in it but it looks like that in WoW's new expansion, spells that were previously dropped only (but tradable) will now be trainable at your class trainer; albeit at a higher level.

i.e. so at level 62, you can now train your "hard to get" level 60 spell.

one would think, that EQ's content was designed with the idea in mind that not everyone had all their spells? For example, it has been said that Ancient's aren't "counted" when designing spell progression, within a line of spells - due to the fact that everyone does not have them.

Comment Posted by: Utziel on October 12, 2006 07:48 PM

Of course the hard core players dont understand how poeple cant go without spells or why they dont have them yet. LOL because them have them and can probably solo to thier runes content. PLEASE spare me your "Im better than you double talk"

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 12, 2006 10:30 PM

This may come as a shock to you, but a reasonably bazaar geared player today can have a hell of a lot better gear than we did when we were camping these runes. We didn't have GM armor or DON crystal armor and augments when we first went to MPG or RSS. We had uberty 50-75 hp gear. Now, you can collect not only that, but nice cloaks and gear.

So, you should be quite capable of doing these things. No one is bragging about being uber here.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 13, 2006 12:36 AM

So Keisa, if it's as easy as you say, why do you think it is that so many people don't have those spells?

Comment Posted by: Delbaeth on October 13, 2006 01:16 AM

Balancing equipment between raid and group need not be so special. The drops achievable in either kind of event should be a bump up from the gear needed to be able to win it. If handled with great skill, determination and the knowledge from many a wipe it should be a largish bump up. If the group or raid is equipped well enough a moderate effort wins it should be a smallish upgrade. Given gear good enough to turn the event into a mindless grind the drops should maybe fill a weak slot but really the group or raid is past it.

The other side of balancing upgrades is how much time it takes to do the event or camp or raid which drops it. For the same difficulty something long should have better drops and something short weaker.

Raids deserve a strong bonus on this time side. Raiding requires a great deal of time and effort to organize so many players. The social challenges are substantial. This means what 9 groups in a well run raid can do in an hour should mean more than what a well played group can do in 9 hours.

Group content can scale as high as raid content without blowing balance provided the group content requires the corresponding skill, time and equipment. And this means a lot of time, not raid gear dropping from named in camps. It means long instances, or long quests, or whole cycles of missions to get the goodie at the end.

Consider the Mask of the Denlord Rakban in Depths of Darkhollows. When maxed out it is 250HP with some effects and a superb click. Click asside it is just a bit sub Tacvi, with the click it is unique. But doing this requires completing 5 long cycles in DoDH. Some have become easier, especially Widdlethorpe, but overall it remains quite hard and long. A group of friends in DoN crystal gear will not be able to do it. Well, they could if they geared up in MPG trials and the DoDH missions and so forth but that is the point. It takes a long concerted effort to get there. My guild is flagged for Anguish, just got there before the level bump, but only a few members have the clickie mask. Many more have raid masks of equal quality because the raid drops are easier to come by.

I personally find the game most fun with a balance of raiding and grouping. Raiding brings the whole guild together. Grouping brings greater personal involvement and a closer social environment with friend and maybe friends to be.

There is no reason why players can not upgrade their gear in both raids and groups while preserving balance. They just can't upgrade in groups as fast or as easy as many want.

Comment Posted by: lane on October 13, 2006 02:21 AM

Keisa

your suggestion to do what we can .. ie be a buffer only for instance take the fun out of the game what happened to the tactics required to be successful? when all we can contribute is to HO HUM haste cause mez dont work or slow when others have better and go afk between buffing sessions. and all for? to level? what good is level if its no fun getting there?

it's a nice concept but not a very fun way to spend a session.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 13, 2006 09:07 AM

Lane,

Finally, you have passed up all the "can't do it because" excuses and arrived at the real reason you don't have these spells. You don't want to feel useless in a group, and not being able to mez makes you feel useless. Feeling that way is no fun to you.

OK, I'll grant you that, and I'll also tell you that it is the first real reason you have given that you don't already have these spells. It is the price that you have been unwilling to pay in order to get what you want.

Let me ask you this. If you have this spell, will it make you feel useful in a group? If so, how much is it worth to you in order to get it? Will you spend some time feeling useless and not having fun in order to get it? Consider it the price of admission. You spend some not so fun time becoming able to have all that fun from now on out. That's all it comes down to. If you want it, you need to pay the price.

It really is no different for anyone else in the game. My guild succeeded in breaking into Anguish, last night. In order to go there, you have to collect 7 signets. Most are fairly easy, but one is a long boring camp in the bottom of an instance zone. No one wants to do that camp. Other than the incentive of getting the signet, there is nothing there for anyone that does that camp. So, the price of admission to this candyland of good stuff is doing something that no one wants to do. I could give you other examples.

My advice to you is that you need to get over the feeling of being useless, buck up, and do what isn't fun for a few hours in order to get the things that will make you feel productive in a group again. You will feel much better about yourself after that hurdle is crossed. Do it for yourself.

Let me mention one other thing. Your slow spell, the one you use now, is better than mine. My slow spell wins me access to groups all the time. It is useful because those groups cannot survive parts of the game without it or at the very least would have a much harder time of it. If mine is good enough that everyone feels I am a contributing member of the party because of it, what do you suppose they think about your slow? Don't minimize your contribution to a group, leverage it to get what you need.

Teremar,

I just answered your question, too.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 13, 2006 10:44 AM

Teremar,

I wanted to revisit your question. I didn't have time to provide a full answer earler. So, here is my answer.

For each person that doesn't have the spells, there is a price they are either unable or unwilling to pay. In 99% of the cases, you should read that as unwilling to pay.

Oft times, they are unwilling to accept or face the true issue that is keeping them from gettig what they want, so they transfer the issue to something they feel is outside their control. That becomes, "I can't..." By doing this, they are relieved of the obligation to pay a price they are unwilling to pay, and it is now someone else's fault that they can't get what they want.

The truth of the matter is, if a person is willing to pay the price, all of these spells are accessible.

The thing to do is to convince them to either decide to 1. pay the price required or 2. accept that the price is too high and live without whatever it is they want.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 13, 2006 11:36 AM

I appreciate your candor, and it's pretty much the answer I expected. Underneath your courtesy (and I also appreciate your courtesy) is the same snobbery non-raiders have faced since at least Velious. "Casuals are lazy." "Casuals won't pay the price." "If you're not willing to treat the game like a job or maybe an extreme sport, like I do; if you're not willing to do boring camps for hours on end, like I am; then you just don't deserve your spells."

I guess I can kind of understand the EQ-as-extreme-sport mindset. "Those hours of misery make the victory that much sweeter!" I've fallen into it on occasion. But when I look back on those times I always wish I could have those hours back to do something I enjoy instead.

As an "extreme sport" type I'm sure you're very happy in today's EQ Keisa. If you want the game to be exclusively for "exteme sport" types like you by all means keep up what you're doing. Whether both EQ and Vanguard can survive by catering exclusively to the "extreme sport" types is an open question, but maybe EQ will win out anyway.

Please recognize that other people see EQ as a game. They have this funny idea that EQ should be fun most or all of the time. The idea that they should have to be bored for hours first in order to enjoy the game later strikes them as absurd, almost pathological. That may be the way it has to be in the real world, but in EQ (EQ being a game) it's that way if and only if the devs decide to make it that way.

What's more, there are games out there now which at least try to make everything you do fun. One in particular has had great commercial success as a result. Thus the more you lecture people who play EQ to have fun about "paying the price" the more likely they are to leave EQ for games which don't feel the need to make their players miserable as the price of progression. If that's your goal, you're doing a great job. I'm not sure how much SOE appreciates it though.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 13, 2006 02:37 PM

Teremar,

My words were chosen with care to express a specific idea. You chose to misrepresent that idea. I think you misrepresented it, because you are too biased to see it for what I truly meant. Let me explain

I said, “For each person that doesn't have the spells, there is a price they are either unable or unwilling to pay. In 99% of the cases, you should read that as unwilling to pay.” I did not say that anyone was lazy or that they were not willing to treat this game like a job.
Let’s take Lane as an example. I don’t think the price he is unwilling to pay has anything remotely to do with being lazy. In fact, what he wants from the game is to feel needed by the people he is playing the game with. He wants to be able to do his job in the group as he did when developing his character. What draws people to being an enchanter is the feeling they get when locking down multiple mobs and making order out of chaos. That_isn’t_lazy.

The price he doesn’t want to pay is the feeling that the group he joins really doesn’t care if he exists or not. He wants to positively impact the game as he did before, where he was vital to the survival of the party or could charm a mob and generate near the same DPS as everyone else in the group combined. The price he doesn’t want to pay is “being invisible.”

Sadly, SOE created an environment where the only way he can get the spells he needs to feel useful to the groups he is in is to go without those spells for a time. What SOE did to enchanters in OOW is really sad. I feel for him.
But, when you find yourself in a bad situation, you basically have three choices; do something to resolve it, quit and go home, or bitch and whine and do nothing. That has nothing to do with being a raider or a casual player or anything else. It has to do with how you will address things you don’t like in the world around you.

In the end, it comes down to this. SOE has not significantly changed the availability of these spells since the release of OOW. It is highly unlikely that they will significantly change the availability of these spells in the future. They did increase the drop rate at least once and now have made the spells researchable, but I wouldn’t expect these spells to suddenly be sold in hundreds of copies in the bazaar.

So, you can do what is required to get them (or the 71-75 version), you can quit the game and go play WOW or whatever, or you can continue to whine in your beer. One of those solutions will make you feel better. One of them may give you an alternative out. The other solution is guaranteed to make you feel like a second class citizen. Which of these choices do you think is best for you?

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on October 13, 2006 04:17 PM

I may have imputed more of the typical raider snobbery to you than you deserve, and I apologize for that. But I still find your attitude towards Lane condescending.

EQ is a completely arbitrary environment. The devs can change it at any time. Thus pressuring the devs to change a bad system (whatever you may think about the probability of success) is "doing something about it" not "whining in your beer." I look at Lane's posts and see and see an attempt at action, you look at them and see whining. Why is that?

And just to clarify my biases: I quit EQ almost two years ago. I keep track of what's going on in the game because I have friends who still play, they keep wanting me to come back, and I sometimes toy with the idea. But since I'd have to level up my enchanter from 66, issues like this definitely put a damper on my enthusiasm. And I've been having a ball in WoW, so please don't put me on your "whining in their beer" list.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 13, 2006 05:09 PM

"I may have imputed more of the typical raider snobbery to you than you deserve, and I apologize for that. But I still find your attitude towards Lane condescending."

I surely hope he doesn't view my attitude that way, because it is not intended. I hope he sees something in it that will provide him incentive to make a positive change in his situation. My comments to him were for his benefit.

"EQ is a completely arbitrary environment. The devs can change it at any time. Thus pressuring the devs to change a bad system (whatever you may think about the probability of success) is "doing something about it" not "whining in your beer." I look at Lane's posts and see and see an attempt at action, you look at them and see whining. Why is that?"

That is a fair question and deserves an answer. Almost every week, there is a thread on EQLive where people complain about these spells. The threads go on and on, yet SOE has not changed the spells in the two or so years since OOW came out. SOE developers have said on multiple occasions that the drop rate of these spells is appropriate and what they want. Every single one of those threads have people who stand up and say, "Why ah got mah spells in three hours in RSS. They rot every day." All of this suggests to me that complaining about it is counterproductive and is unlikely to produce changes. If it is unlikely to produce change, then it serves no purpose other than to express misery.

"And just to clarify my biases: I quit EQ almost two years ago. I keep track of what's going on in the game because I have friends who still play, they keep wanting me to come back, and I sometimes toy with the idea. But since I'd have to level up my enchanter from 66, issues like this definitely put a damper on my enthusiasm. And I've been having a ball in WoW, so please don't put me on your "whining in their beer" list."

Did I say you were in any camp? I seem to remember asking you which of the choices were best for you. Honestly, the decision is yours. Whether you return to the game and what you do in order to enjoy it is entirely up to you. Whichever path you chose, you are the one that will pay the price and reap the benefits of that path.

I have expressed my opinion and offered advice. Like all advice, it is of different value to different people. At any rate, I think this discussion has run it's course.

Good luck and good hunting.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Maevenn on October 13, 2006 10:05 PM

Lane,

maybe your guild might be capable of doing a raid target or two in OoW that drops the greater/glowing runes? It sounds like your guild is near or at that level.

Targets like Zun`Muram Volklana and Battlemaster Rhious in RCoD drop nice gear and 2 greater or glowing runes every time.

This might help you and your guildmates get some necessary spells that would then allow you to group in MPG & RSS, if you feel you must have the spells first.

Best of Luck to you, do not lose hope, I too once thought I'd never get my 69/70 OoW spells, and found it to be easier than I thought, and I'm a wizard so I almost never got pick up groups.

Comment Posted by: la on October 14, 2006 01:01 PM

thanks for all the encouragement and suggestions I will try them

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on October 15, 2006 02:20 PM

Just for the record, I played in MPG for more than 4 hours last night. Except for a ring which we rolled on for alts, nothing of interest, including runes, dropped. So if the rune drop rate has been increased, it must have been truly awful before.

Group of 6 x 4 hours playtime to get NO runes. The pulling was non stop and the camp very boring. No tactics or excitement involved. A high price to pay I think for a little bit of exp.

Comment Posted by: Vamirez on October 16, 2006 04:29 AM

There was some bad luck involved and maybe there are better ways to tackle MPG. I have very good experiences with crawling the zone with 1-3 groups. Let a tracker check for named mobs and then crawl there and kill them. There are about 20 named mobs in MPG that drop decent gear and can drop runes. Most are located on the way to the trials and are very rarely camped (at least on AB). If none are up, go and kill a few PHs. I did this several nights and got an average of six gear drops plus runes. It was also great fun - the runs were quite popular. Note that greater and glowing runes can drop in MPG, but rarely. If your group or mini-raid can handle it, you can do the same in RSS or Ilsalin. Enjoy :-)

Comment Posted by: Keisa on October 16, 2006 10:20 AM

Another suggestion I have is park a mule in Illsalin near Gloomfang's alcove. If he is up, get a group or two, depending on your abilities, together and go kill him. Gloomfang is (or was) about a 24 hour spawn and always drops two greater/glowing runes.

Keisa

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